Can anyone recommend good research material on Continental Currency Restrikes/Casts? MYSTERY SOLVED

dthigpen

I just purchased one and would like to read up a bit on them, anyone know of volumes that reference them with any good information?

Thanks,

Louis

You purchased a counterfeit ?

dthigpen

I purchased a contemporarily made (as in, made while these coins were in circulation with the intent of the counterfeit passing for face value) counterfeit.

morgannut2

There is no need to drill a hole in that beauty Mr. dthigpen!! Resist your impulses!!

dthigpen

Heh, believe it or not, I collect things other than holed coins , no worries there.

morgannut2

Isn't Chapman the dealer involved with a number of restikes and patterns from the mint? I remember Bowers writing something in a catelog about him in the past. You might give ANR a call for them to examine/talk or you could contact the ANA library where you can borrow publications on this vintage material for free.

dthigpen

All I can verify so far is that at one point the Chapman brothers owned the original 1776 Continental Currency Tin Patterns. The background on my new purchase is unknown - just that it was purchased by a man twenty years ago from JJ Teaparty in Boston, whom purchased it as a contemporary counterfeit from the original known owner who originally purchased it believing it was a genuine coin - at least that was the brief pedigree that I got from the dealer who recently passed it to me. These old counterfeits, especially when accompanied by vintage storage material with specific 'pedigree' information on them, drive me nuts until I can find out the complete history on their past.

morgannut2

As these were patterns per Breen (1988), I would seriously doubt that they are any contemporary counterfeits. What value would they have as patterns? If counterfeit, isn't it more likely the work of someone contemporary to the activity of the Chapman's dealership intended for unsuspecting collectors? If there is one, then I'm sure there were more made at whatever date. Again I would suspect Q. David Bowers would know about any. Perhaps they just counterfeited the authentic "curency" version, and not the other spellings. Interesting to hear what you find out about the coin and the Chapmans.

EagleEye

I would doubt that is a "contemporary" counterfeit, it probably is a product of the 1860 - 1900 era.

dthigpen

<< <i>I would doubt that is a "contemporary" counterfeit, it probably is a product of the 1860 - 1900 era. >>



What makes you say that, other than the quality and detail? (Not that I doubt it one bit)

Pistareen

I agree with Rick's assessment, and it may be even slightly more modern. Henry Chapman was active until 1935.

The piece looks unworn, and the texture appears to be that of a cast. This is guesswork without seeing the piece.

What I can say that in many years of specializing in early American material, I've never heard of a contemporary counterfeit Continental dollar other than counterfeits of the paper issues. The metal Continental dollars did not circulate well (which is why the vast majority of them are high grade - go try to buy 3 Fine or VF Continental dollars in a decade), so they would not be the first thing an entrepreneur would copy. Paper issues were easier to produce for circulation, and a cast Mexican 8 reales or something similar would spend much easier than a Continental dollar.

An interesting item, nonetheless, but not contemporary to the original period of issue. If you do like copies made for collectors (and many of us do -- I do have a collection of electrotypes etc.), I might recommend Richard Kenney's "Struck Copies of Early American Coins," a monograph that describes all those pieces struck in the late 19th century for collectors. This piece, incidentally, does not appear to have been struck.

EagleEye

First off, They did not circulate - any that show wear were probably pocket pieces.
Second- The quality of counterfeits during this time (machins Mills and other cft. half pence) were very crude, and made to look well worn to gain acceptance.
Third - Again, the quality, which is quite good looks like it was to gain acceptance of collectors, not to pass as money. Coin collecting was not "gown up" enough to make such an endevor rewarding until the late 1850's. It could be from the same maker of the "Good samaritain" shillings, which were made for collector consumtion in the second half of the 1800's.

I would think it is worth something being so well made.

JadeRareCoin

I agree with the others in that in would not be a contemporary counterfeit. There are sooooo many different reproductions/counterfeits/copies of continental dollars, but in my experience I have never seen a contemporary counterfeit. Most are modern (1960's onward).

It looks like your piece is a copy of Newman 1-B or 1-C. It is possible that you have an electotype. If you can find documentation or other proof that would date your piece to the late 1800's to early 1900's, then you could have something of value. "Of value" meaning more than $10. I have owned electrotypes of other colonial coins that were worth anywhere from $50 to $300, depending on the maker, the quality and the time frame of production.

I am curious about the Chapman envelope. It is numbered to suggest that your copy was part of an early auction or price list. If someone could find the Chapman catalog that would have a lot corresponding to your lot, then you may add another piece to this interesting puzzle. Maybe coinkat would have a Chapman auction reference that could be researched??

dthigpen

Thanks for the insight so far. Next step is to try to track down a Chapman catalog it was listed in.

JadeRareCoin

dthigpen, there's also the possibility that it is a recent copy (1960's onward), than was placed into an old Chapman envelope, and then someone wrote "counterfeit" to give it more mystique. I have seen people use old 2X2 envelopes in the past to attempt to give their coins more prestige. Just a thought.

dthigpen

<< <i>dthigpen, there's also the possibility that it is a recent copy (1960's onward), than was placed into an old Chapman envelope, and then someone wrote "counterfeit" to give it more mystique. I have seen people use old 2X2 envelopes in the past to attempt to give their coins more prestige. Just a thought. >>



Another great point to consider. I just need to track down the catalog it was in, at least then I can see if the number matches the type of coin and go from there.

dthigpen

Here are some pictures of it I just took today, still haven't came any further on information concerning it, if there is any...

Conder101

Doesn't look like a cast to me. I'm wondering about the possibility that it might be one of the 1876 restikes that were made during the centennial. I believe they were struck from transfer dies so they would be well detailed and would not show casting bubbles or a seam like a great many of the copies do.

PerryHall

Hate to disagree with you Conder but it definitely looks like a cast copy to me because of the dull rough surfaces which is characteristic of cast copies. Also, I don't think the 1876 "restrikes" were made with transfer dies since this would imply the original dies from 1776 were still available which was not the case.

dthigpen

Thanks for the information, Conder. While the funky toning on the picture may make it seem like it, it does not exhibit casting bubbles (nor a seam). Of course, that also doesn't neccesarily mean it isn't a cast copy. If I can find the Chapman inventory number on the 2x2 sleeve in any sort of catalog or inventory list and at least see if it had anything to do with a CC piece, it would be a good start, just can't seem to do so.

dthigpen

Here is a picture of the only lettering on the edge. Any new ideas?

Pistareen

Oh! Now we know what it is!

That was made by a guy named Peter Rosa in the 60s. He marked his cast copies BECKER on the edge, taking his nom-de-plume from Becker the Counterfeiter, who became infamous in the early 19th century in Germany for making copies that could fool anyone.

Rosa only really did colonials, and now they are rather collectible in the $30-100 range.

You have a Becker cast. That solves it.

dthigpen

Thanks for the help Pistareen