I guess Heritage really doesn't care if they SCREW their bidders.

Russ

Mislabeled 1965 SMS Kennedy sells for about 70 times what it's worth.

I talked to them 3 1/2 days before that auction closed and was told the graders would look at the coin and that if they felt it was an SMS, the auction would be cancelled. So, either their graders are incompetent, (not hardly), or Heritage just figured "what the hell" and stuck it to the bidder.

BTW, this is not one that would be covered under the PCGS guarantee since it's considered a mechanical error. Heritage also knows that.

Russ, NCNE

ER

JrGMan2004

Does the serial number come up as SMS in the cert look-up?

ER

SMS?

Regulated

What is a PQ 1966 SMS Half in PC 67DCAM worth?

wam98

Russ

<< <i>What is a PQ 1966 SMS Half in PC 67DCAM worth? >>



PCGS graded? If so, the $1500 to $1800 range in the current market. Maybe a little more if the right bidders come along.

Russ, NCNE

Coinhusker1

<< <i>
BTW, this is not one that would be covered under the PCGS guarantee since it's considered a mechanical error. Heritage also knows that.

Russ, NCNE >>



What do you mean by mechanical error? PCGS mistakenly left "SMS" off the label?

MadMonk

JrGMan2004

<< <i>

<< <i>
BTW, this is not one that would be covered under the PCGS guarantee since it's considered a mechanical error. Heritage also knows that.

Russ, NCNE >>



What do you mean by mechanical error? PCGS mistakenly left "SMS" off the label? >>

Yes

Theop

Could someone please explain to me what the error is? How would one know it is actually SMS (other than by the apperance of the coin) and not business strike?

Going to the Cert Verification page on the PCGS website for this coins shows it is 1965 50C MS67. SMS is not mentioned, so why do you think it is just the wrong label?

This would seem (to my ignorant mind) that it would in fact be covered under a grade guarantee. (i.e. PCGS would guarantee it is a non-SMS 1965 50c in MS67)

Shamika

It's hard to believe you could find a green label slab with this kind of error. I would have thought one owner or another would have had it corrected over the years.

Russ

<< <i>How would one know it is actually SMS (other than by the apperance of the coin) and not business strike? >>



It is the appearance of the coin that is the tell. It is clearly an SMS.

Russ, NCNE

TWQG

<< <i>I would have thought one owner or another would have had it corrected over the years. >>

-The only one who could've fixed it without big loss would be the original submitter.

Russ

Bump in case anybody from Heritage drops by and would like to explain their actions.

Russ, NCNE

ER

<< <i>Bump in case anybody from Heritage drops by and would like to explain their actions.

Russ, NCNE >>



"SCREW" you, Russ.

JH

morgannut2

I don't understand what is was that Heritage was supposed to do. The seller says its not a SMS, and the top grading company says it's not a SMS. If Heritage talks to PCGS and they say it's OK, then are they supposed to not offer a coin they contractully agreed to offer based on one person's opinion. Granted, everyone on this Forum knows that Russ is almost surely correct, but everyone on this Forum also may think Russ is qualified and should to be making $300,000 a year as a finalizer at PCGS/NGC---- but that isn't going to make Russ do it is it? It's hard to force people to do anything they don't agree with in the old U.S.A. Just IMHO.

RotatedRainbows

Looks to me like the bidder screwed themselves by buying something they did not know anything about if the coin is in fact not as described. If you are spending 4 figures on a coin you better know what you are bidding on regardless of what any middleman says.

Russ

<< <i>I don't understand what is was that Heritage was supposed to do. >>



How about the right thing? The ethical, moral thing. The thing they SAID they would do if the coin was an SMS - which it clearly is. Close the auction so the bidder didn't get taken.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

I'll admit I watched that auction with amazement. As SMS coins go, it sucks, and anyone who would buy the coin for the money it fetched should certainly know it's SMS. If it was purchased for registry points, it's mind numbing. If the intention was to return it to PCGS, I think the gamble is huge and the outcome unlikely. I frankly didn't understand why it was doing the money it was doing, even early in the auction.

SMS, for those that asked, is an abbreviation of special mint set. SMS coins are distinguished by mirrored fields, and many of the dies used to manufacture SMS coins were pressed into service making business strikes. There is no die diagnostic that's definitive. Many registry participants place great value on business strike 65-67 halves, primarily because PCGS makes a distinction in the registry, and it is difficult to find a coin in high grade that's not designated SMS. Based on their past posts, PCGS's acid test is to determine whether a coin is SMS or business strike is simply "if there is any doubt, and there are any mirrors, it's SMS". They err on the side of caution, but some of the green holder coins that are designated business strike would certainly get the SMS designation if submitted today.

Who's culpable? The buyer? The auction house? PCGS? All of them? Maybe each deserve a portion, but the coin is clearly SMS. Good luck to all involved, but I see the coin as $10. JMO My personal collection makes no distinction between the two, but to each his/her own. I have nice examples with both finishes, which is all I believe differentiates the coins.

badger

There was a identification (Type 1) error in the listings for a 1956 Franklin NGC Proof 67Dcam in the same auction. NGC doesn't list Type 1 or Type 2 on the holder, so the Heritage listing was the reference. Under a separate thread we confirmed that the coin is a Type 2. I tried to contact Heritage on the night of the closing of bidding to alert them to the error. As above, an unknowledgeable buyer might bid high for a coin that turned out to be a disappointment. Heritage offices were closed when I called so no action was possible.

Heritage previously let me retract a bid when the listing was inaccurate with no hassle.

Seems like a email hotline for auction errors in listings might be warranted.

morgannut2

The problem Russ is they almost certainly have a binding contract with the seller, probably in writing. But I agree, the ethical thing to do is to return to coin to PCGS for a full Presidential review and include your Email opinions. They certainly make enough money in sales to afford the stupid mailing/grading fees. If this POS belongs to a dealer, then Heritage's behavior is not unethical, it's fraudulent! If it belongs to an unknowing honest collector, I can see how he might really raise heck over their contract, and feel wronged if it's only one guy (you) who's raised doubts. This issue should be addressed here on these boards by Heritage, as it certainly hurts my opinion of their business practices as it stands.

Russ

<< <i>The problem Russ is they almost certainly have a binding contract with the seller, probably in writing. >>



Which, in the case of this coin, they never should have entered in to. The rankest rookie can see it's an SMS. When the seller offered it for consignment, they should have simply refused it.

I'd guess, though, that their standard contracts have provisos incorporated in to them allowing early closures of auctions under specifically outlined circumstances. They've done it before.

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion

I had a related experience with Heritage once for a coin in their inventory.

They were offering a Washington Draped Bust colonial original (as opposed to the much more common restrike shown below) in choice unc. for a large number.



I bought it, looked it over and determined it was clearly a restrike. (If anybody cares to know how to distinguish originals from restrikes PM me, otherwise I won't subject the casual reader to that much minutae). I returned it to Heritage, explained why it was a restrike and told them they needed to correct the error.

Low and behold the thing turned up again a few weeks later on the Heritage site - still identified incorrectly as an orginal and still with a big (though now different) number.

I called twice more until it was finally removed from the site.

My sense overall is that they didn't much care what is was or wasn't as long as someone bought it.

DHeath

Morgannut,

Business strike 65 halves do not have cameo reverses. There is no question in my mind what the coin is, nor would there be with any Kennedy collector based on the images. Maybe the coin doesn't have a cam reverse in hand, and is not mirrored.

Barry

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't understand what is was that Heritage was supposed to do. >>



How about the right thing? The ethical, moral thing. The thing they SAID they would do if the coin was an SMS - which it clearly is. Close the auction so the bidder didn't get taken.

Russ, NCNE >>


Timely, with respect to the Forbes article...

Myqqy

Is there any way to find out who the high bidder is, so they can decide to return it to heritage for a refund??

JoshL

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't understand what is was that Heritage was supposed to do. >>



How about the right thing? The ethical, moral thing. The thing they SAID they would do if the coin was an SMS - which it clearly is. Close the auction so the bidder didn't get taken.

Russ, NCNE >>

Bear

Well,apparently , Heritage did not want

to rely on the opinion of a ferret.

segoja

Put simply...greed on Heritage's part.

This business has been and always will be caveat emptor.

Pity the poor buyer who will find out soon enough that his/her $2700 investment went the way of the .com stocks of the 1999-2000 era.

kranky

<< <i>This business has been and always will be caveat emptor. >>



And that's an even easier position for a seller to take when a coin is slabbed. "Who, me? I don't know nothin'. I'm just going by the label."

DHeath

Amen, brother.

Bear

I believe that Heritage would auction a cow patty , if only

they could get it slabbed and graded.

FatMan

<< <i>I believe that Heritage would auction a cow patty , if only they could get it slabbed and graded. >>

I won on one of those in the past. Only they called it a Vermont Commem.

Bear

RBinTex

Russ is 100% right. Mechanical error is NOT covered under the PCGS grading guarantee.

This is just the latest weekly installment of Heritage's unbridled greed & arrogance. Click one of the following links for some others (I had the spare time to catch - I'm sure many others went unoticed):

LINK1 (fairly innocous but still a BS way to do business).

LINK2 Possible fraud

LINK3 More deception

There's simply no excuse for their actions & behavior. Either they knew or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!

kranky

LOL @ FatMan!

Shamika

<< <i> Russ is 100% right. Mechanical error is NOT covered under the PCGS grading guarantee. >>


I'm curious. How certain are we that PCGS would consider this a mechanical error?

RBinTex

110% if an SMS. Same as a matte proof a while ago on eBay that said 1909 VDB but no VDB on coin. You think their gonna shell out multi-thousands because of a typo? In one case something omitted. In the other something added in error. Both cases "errors" - i.e. "mechanical errors". Not a grading issue (by THEIR definition).

BigE

Shamika, I have a feeling that if someone adds that coin to their registry set we will find out if pcgs honors their guarantee---------------------BigE

Russ

<< <i>I have a feeling that if someone adds that coin to their registry set >>



PCGS doesn't even give a rat's ass about that.

This set has a mechanical error listed in it.

Several of us have informed PCGS numerous times over the last year, and they've done nothing to correct it.

Russ, NCNE

Bear

It just seems to me, that the auction game has got more screws then a hardware store.

Unless 2you negotiate hard and take protective measures, you find that often the house

is there to take advantage of any misfortune that may impact you. They make money by charging

the coin seller, they make money by charging the buyer and often they make money by picking off coins

for the house that have shown weak bidding below there true value.

BigE

Couldn't you tell the guy who bought it ?-------BigE

BigE

Maybe he would sue you for slandering his registry set though---------BigE

Russ

<< <i>Couldn't you tell the guy who bought it ? >>



According to wondercoin, they know, and they're one of the ones who've tried to get it corrected.

Russ, NCNE

RGL

Russ: Have you ever seen a '65-67 JFK biz strike you would grade/call CAM?

eagle7

<< <i>It just seems to me, that the auction game has got more screws then a hardware store.

Unless 2you negotiate hard and take protective measures, you find that often the house

is there to take advantage of any misfortune that may impact you. They make money by charging

the coin seller, they make money by charging the buyer and often they make money by picking off coins

for the house that have shown weak bidding below there true value. >>



Wise old Bear!

IrishMike

I wouldn't know an SMS Kennedy from a business struck coin and I am no way a lawyer. But one of the first things they teach in business contract law classes that contracts can be voided it the two parties are dealing with each other unevenly. In other words if Heritage knew or should have known that they were selling a misrepresented coin then the buyer can cancel the sale or recover his funds. I don't care how many legal disclaimers they come up with.

Shamika

Interesting... when I go to verify the certification number the coin does come up MS67.

JRocco

for having the b@lls to write this post. This was a 3 point swish.

doubledeie

First - thanks for a very thorough explanation of the problem.

Secondly, I would like to voice an apology from Heritage for not recognizing the PCGS mechanical error and for failing to get this lot out of the system earlier. We're very busy gearing up for FUN, and this slipped through the cracks.

The buyer of this particular piece has been fully refunded, and the SMS Half Dollar has been returned to the consignor.

I'm sure you realize that it has never been the policy of Heritage to misrepresent any auction lot - in any way, ever. I know any time you are the buyer that you can easily become suspicious of the seller's non-disclosure of important information, but we really do thrive on accuracy, precision, and communicating that to our buyers. We are not out to deceive the uninformed. In fact, we are very proud of many stories where the uninformed seller received a phone call from us explaining that one of his pieces was actually a rarity and he had more money coming to him.

Even though we have a number of checks and balances in place to prevent catalog errors, they do sometimes occur. And when we discover them (or someone else points them out), we immediately do our best to correct them.

If you spot an error, let us know! Send an email to ISpottedAnError@HeritageCoins.com or call us at 1-800-US-COINS.

Thanks again.