PSA should start a new player's set - They can call it "All juiced up All-stars".

NeilDowney

Hi Guys, How about PSA start a new player's set - They can call it "All juiced up All-stars". The #1 card will be Barry "I don't know what was in that sh_t I was using" Bonds. Who should be cards #2 and so on? Let's hear some votes for other "juiced up" players over the years. Neil

koby

Bonds
Caminiti
Canseco
Sosa
Sheffield
McGwire

and 50- 75 percent of the players out there depending on what reports we read

mikeschmidt

Lenny Dykstra

purelyPSA

Other guesses: Juan Gonzalez, Reggie Sanders, Ivan Rodriguez

elway65

the guy that played for the KC royals, teammate of George Brett, he was about 5'2" and 95 lbs., shoots, the name escapes me. But I can see his '77 topps card vividly, I think he was in the batting cirlce (no weights on the bats though...they would knocked the poor guy flat on his back). I think he had the title of the league's smallest player. Does anyone happen to know, so I can end the joke I never finished.

minibeers

I think that was Freddy Patek??

Browntoni

Brady Anderson

NeilDowney

Hi Guys, Are we forgeting Giambi? League MVP on the magic juice. Neil

oaktown

Bret Boone...guy got huge in one offseason

perkdog

Why not list 80% of MLB ? Ridiculus to think you can name a list of steroid users in MLB.

DaBigHurt

Without any proof whatsoever and going on purely their physical appearance:

Ryan Klesko. I didn't think much about him being on the juice until I saw him this year. Talk about a guy who shrunk (looked at least 25-30 lbs lighter than previous years). His homerun total was rather telling as well.

Lenny Dykstra for sure. The guy went from 5'8 and 155 lbs soaking wet to pocket hercules overnight.

Jeff Bagwell has really bulked up from his younger playing days. Just look at the size of his forearms and thighs! Giambiesque transformation.

Luis Gonzalez. 57 friggin home runs in 2001?? How does this guy not get mentioned when we throw accusations of steriod abuse around? People talk about the incredible growing head of Bonds, but have you seen Gonzos dome lately??

CON40

My All-Juice Team by position:

1B: Jason Giambi
2B: Bret Boone
3B: Adrian Beltre (All-Time: Ken Caminit)
SS: Phil Nevin
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Steve Finley
RF: Gary Sheffield
C: Benito Santiago
P: Kevin Brown, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson
DH: Jeff Bagwell

NickM

I believe Beltre has a prescription for his juice. His botched abdominal surgery in the Dominican led to a lengthy course of treatment to rebuild atrophying muscles. Kevin Brown likewise has had multiple injuries for which steroids are prescribed as part of a course of treatment.

I think it's also very unfair to call Randy Johnson juiced. He doesn't seem to have gotten larger over time - he has just developed more control (and it wasn't steroids that made him 6'10").

Nick

koby

I find it interesting that Roger Clemens has aways flown under the radar on these steroid discussions.

He's 41 (?) and pitching better than he ever did. He's huge, but he has always been a big guy. I just found the article in SI about his workout regime incredible. Don't steroids help in recovery from training?

jimtb

Purely PSA,
You mentioned Pudge Rodriguez? I've never even heard a whisper about him.

CON40

I think it's also very unfair to call Randy Johnson juiced.

I disagree... 42-year-old pitcher with a bad back and a bad knee but can throw 98 mph? He may not have the muscle mass of Bonds, but not all steroid regimens are the same... the rumor is that there are more pitchers juicing than hitters, yet not many pitchers look like Clemens or Brown, so the regimen has to be variable to a degree.

10 years ago, there was only one old man in the history of baseball that could fire a pea at 96 mph and he was considered a once-in-a-lifetime freak. Suddenly, we have a half-dozen ancient hurlers that are still at their statistical AND physical peak in the twilight years -- Clemens, Johnson, Schilling, Moyer, Smoltz, Maddux. I'm not saying all of these guys are juiced, but it would be naive to assume they were all clean too.

crsportscards33

Just to clarify, now the top pitchers are using too?? Come on guys. First off, the ability to throw hard has nothing to do with how strong you are. It is a makeup between tendons and the way they are wrapped in your arm. Steroids will NOT help you throw 98 mph. Have you seen Billy Wagner? What about Nolan Ryan? These guys throw damn hard, but no way are they on the juice. Clemens goes through an exhausting regimen daily to stay in that shape. Yes he did bulk up over the years, but who hasn't? With his workouts, he's turned the weight he's gained into mass. If you'll notice too, he didn't really start this size until leaving Boston. The RedSox told him he was washed up and that pissed him off, enough to motivate him to prove them wrong. This is when the military-like training started. He has always been a great pitcher. Was he using at University of Texas too?? Best pitcher in the country, so he must have huh? I'm not saying steroids aren't being used in mlb, but not anyone over 150 pounds is automatically using.

julen23

If you throw in Roger Clemens, you gotta throw in Randy Johnson.

I would also add Jessie Orasco for good measure....

muhahahah

CON40

Just to clarify, now the top pitchers are using too?? Come on guys. First off, the ability to throw hard has nothing to do with how strong you are. It is a makeup between tendons and the way they are wrapped in your arm. Steroids will NOT help you throw 98 mph. Have you seen Billy Wagner? What about Nolan Ryan? These guys throw damn hard, but no way are they on the juice. Clemens goes through an exhausting regimen daily to stay in that shape. Yes he did bulk up over the years, but who hasn't? With his workouts, he's turned the weight he's gained into mass. If you'll notice too, he didn't really start this size until leaving Boston. The RedSox told him he was washed up and that pissed him off, enough to motivate him to prove them wrong. This is when the military-like training started. He has always been a great pitcher. Was he using at University of Texas too?? Best pitcher in the country, so he must have huh? I'm not saying steroids aren't being used in mlb, but not anyone over 150 pounds is automatically using.

You are naive. What do tendons do? They connect MUSCLE to bone. And since you can't "strengthen" a tendon or bone, if you want to gain strength (and possibly throw harder), you have to strengthen muscles and improve mechanics. Just ask Pedro Martinez. His rotator cuff is shot... torn. He needs surgery to correct it, but he has refused so far opting, instead, to strengthen the muscles in his shoulder and neck to relieve stress on the cuff tear. It's been working for him for 2 years now. So you can't say muscles don't play a major role in a pitcher's ability to throw hard repeatedly.

Plus, steroids don't necessarily make muscles bigger. Hank Aaron claims that setroids' biggest benefit is that they cut down recuperation time significantly and help stave off muscle fatigue. This is why it helps the old guys so much.

I was speaking with a friend who works with the Red Sox, SABR, and ESPN. According to him, baseball has more suspicions about pitchers than hitters. And within the Sox' organization, a couple stars are suspected juicers and they would NOT be the players to come to mind first. No, I don't know who they are.

perkdog

With all these posts here it seems to Me that people want to hang Bonds out to dry when he is one of MANY alleged user's in MLB. I have defended Bonds in other threads so I wont bring that here.
It's good to hear that people understand that a LOT of MLB players dabble with something or another.

jimtb

I remember reading that Bond's hat size went up 2 1/2 sizes after age 35. Come on, everyone knows he's doing it.

onlychild

...and he didn't always have a big head?

mohiba

<< <i> I remember reading that Bond's hat size went up 2 1/2 sizes after age 35. Come on, everyone knows he's doing it. >>


Apparently he didn't know he was doing it...........right.....
Clemens is on the juice for sure...............

joker73

I'm sure the steroid scandal has no effect on his decision at all ...

BugOnTheRug

con,

nice pik of Art Linkletter with the santa hat........

BOTR

koby

<< <i>With all these posts here it seems to Me that people want to hang Bonds out to dry when he is one of MANY alleged user's in MLB. I have defended Bonds in other threads so I wont bring that here.
It's good to hear that people understand that a LOT of MLB players dabble with something or another. >>



I think people realize that it is not just Bonds. In fact, its probably more than half the players out there including some of our favorites.

People like to bash on Bonds because he has never endeared himself to the media or to the fans.

perkdog

Koby,
I take your point well.

joker73

If people found out that both Barry Sanders and Mark Van Eeghen used steroids during their playing days, who do you think would get most of the attention?

Bonds' attitude certainly doesn't do him any favors, but the primary reason he's target numero uno is because he's closing in on baseball's most hallowed record - in large part because of the numbers he's put up in recent, steroid-enhanced seasons. His 73* under cloudy conditions doesn't help either.

DirtyHarry

Sam McDowell sucked down a lot of juice. Must include him.

jaybyrd

Did someone mention Greg Maddux? Get real, out of uniform he looks like a high school math teacher. He is just a little chubbier than he was when he was younger, but by no means is he a muscle head. Besides he was at his peak in the mid 90's and never has been a power pitcher. Jamie Moyer is a similar pitcher in age as well as pitching style as Maddux (just not as good) and I doubt anyone is going to mention Moyer in the same sentence with steroids.

jimtb

You be the judge:

NickM

CON - Randy Johnson is 6'10". That by itself qualifies him as a once-in-a-lifetime freak, Moyer throws junk with great control, and wins big by playing on a very good team (his ERA isn't that impressive).

Nick

CON40

CON - Randy Johnson is 6'10". That by itself qualifies him as a once-in-a-lifetime freak, Moyer throws junk with great control, and wins big by playing on a very good team (his ERA isn't that impressive).

I don't think Moyer and Maddux are juice goons... I was pointing out that there is an unusually high number of elder statesmen pitchers acvtive right now still at their peak. I included Moyer because he won 20 games in 2003 at age 40 for the FIRST time. He is likely the exception (like Warren Spahn). But no way are all of these guys clean. It is statistically improbable. The last time we had a run of old guys still pitching was in the mid-80s (Ryan, Carlton, Sutton, Niekro, John, Seaver, Fingers). Of that crew, only Ryan was still in his physical and statistical prime at an advanced age. The rest were hanging on by a thread.

Maybe Johnson is a physical freak. Maybe he's a juice goon. It's worth thinking about. The only two "definites" on my list (in my mind) are Brown and Clemens. I have my doubts about Schilling too.

I also point to Johnson because it seems that Arizona *may* have had a clique of juicers... Steve Finley, Luis Gonzalez, Randy Johnson(?), Curt Schilling(?)... any others from that 2001 team stick out?

Wabittwax

Randy Johnson is definately not on the juice, imo. Also, did somebody mention Mark McGwire? You can't assume that people are using steroids just because they bulk up. Truth is, any of us can do that too. Think about it. They have almost all day to work out without 9 to 5 jobs, kids, soccer practice etc. like the rest of us do. They have unlimited money to buy the best personal trainers and the best legal supplements available. Plus they have a huge huge incentive to lift weights like a madman. They're jobs depend on it. For most of us, lifting weights and exercising doesn't play a large factor in our finances. Until somebody can prove that a specific player is on the juice, we shouldn't just assume it and diminish their accomplishments. I think a lot of you guys are just mad because your heroes records are being broken.

ranger63

how can you build a juice team and not include Ted Kluszewski...cmon



maybe not...but that is one big dude!