2005 Spink

coinkat

I saw the 2005 Spink at the Baltimore Coin Show and chose not to buy one this year. I was hoping that there would be more variety entries... they really did a great job with the last edition with Victorian 1d section.

I only looked at afew prices and there are some increases... I noticed that the George II silver increased. I wonder how long this trend can continue...

AuldFartte

I just got the 2005 Spink last week. I had ordered it from a guy in England I buy British coins from on occasion. This is my first Spink, and I am enjoying "learning" it right now.

Is the coin on the cover that one that sold for over $400,000 recently? It looks like it to me.

Aethelred

<< <i>

Is the coin on the cover that one that sold for over $400,000 recently? It looks like it to me. >>



Yes, an amazing coin isn't it?

agraded

I noticed that the George II silver increased. I wonder how long this trend can continue...

It's speculation on my part but I think coin prices are getting help from the weakness in many traditional investments. While collectors (not speculators and investors) buy the majority of available coins it helps to know there is a good chance that choice coin you reached to buy will probably be worth more as time goes on. I am also seeing more US dealers that are picking up some English coins to sell and this expanding base increases demand for a pretty thin supply of nice English coins. For British collectors that have not seen this artice by Bruce Lorich it makes for some interesting reading.

http://www.coinlink.com/authors/lorich/april03.html

Bob

MacCrimmon

Lorich link

Keep your eyes peeled for the prices realized for the upcoming Heritage FUN Sale of British material......better yet, if you can attend and review the coins for yourself, you'll get a better idea of which coins will bring HUGE money and others which may seem to languish in the same grade (certified).

Top Terner material brought 3x to 10x of the Spink guide, and an agent for Spink was actively bidding well over "book", as were many other collectors and dealers. What does that tell you?

1jester

"I would like to mention an incident I witnessed years ago at one of the annual summer ANA Conventions. I was reviewing the coin trays of a major London dealer, buying the very few truly nice coins they owned. I asked the price of one coin, whereupon one of the firm's staff numismatists picked up the coin from its tray and turned it over and over with his thumb while deciding upon a price. Each time he rolled it over, his thumb rubbed the coin's surfaces! (This was not an unusual practice, and even a Proof might be picked up and turned over again and again by thumb.) I passed on that coin and asked him not to do that with the other coins I had selected. I bought (and picked up with my own hands) those which hadn't suffered from this abusive "thumb rubbing." I think this anecdote tells us much about why most "Uncirculated" English coins show some rubbing on their surfaces, and why so many Proof coins show lots of marks, discoloration and fine scratches. I used to say that, some day, the British dealers would turn on their lights, use magnifying glasses, and begin to handle coins properly, and that they would suddenly discover that almost all of their choicest coins were vacationing abroad. But the future is now,..." --Bruce Lorich

Nice link, Mac. I've highlighted one of the "horrors" of coin collecting: dealers who don't handle coins properly; it's the status quo in Europe, unfortunately.

coinkat

I read the article. Some points/observations are made, however, there are still differences between the coin market in the UK and the US. I am not sure that collectors of British coins will be as concerned about the differences between MS64-65 and even higher... especially with pre George III coinage because not much survived in that condition. I think that original high end circulated coins (pre George III) that grade in the EF45-AU58 range will satisfy many. I imagine that a 1735 1/2 Crown graded by PCGS or NGC would be a major rarity and may not fetch the $$$$$ of a comparable US coin.

If the UK coin market continues to show strength, it will be interesting to see what old time collections are brought on the market and perhaps there will be a better appreciation of how tough certain coins are in various grades.

agraded

I read the article. Some points/observations are made, however, there are still differences between the coin market in the UK and the US. I am not sure that collectors of British coins will be as concerned about the differences between MS64-65 and even higher...

What you're saying is correct (has been correct) but there is change in the air...even in Merry Old England. Below is an excerpt from an e-mail I recently received from Certified Coin Investments Ltd. (a business venture between Lockdales Collectables and London Coins). They will be using PCGS and NGC to grade their coins and those offered in the upper MS grades are priced dramatically higher (many well above Spink) than normal raw Uncirculated coins. The trouble they are having is locating 63+ coins in quantity to offer to their clients (what a surprise). And all the coins they submit are not coming back the Gems they might have thought they were (same as us....so welcome to the world of 3rd party graded coins). Add this to the information in the artice by Bruch Lorich I posted earlier and I think you can see things adding up. The excerpt follows and has been sent to all their combined customers from over the years. Cheers, Bob

A coin certified MS63 already verges on the choice side of the uncirculated spectrum. The Spink catalogue has little relevance when dealing with choice uncirculated coins, and no relevance pre 1797. Many raw coins in the trade sold as UNC (or 'gem BU!') under certification would quite simply not meet the standard of our merchandise.

Certified coins have never been cleaned, tooled or tampered with in any way whatsoever.

Forget what other UK dealers may have told you about the American grading system. The PCGS and NGC system is of a standard so much higher than that of the vague British system as to defeat it utterly. Many UK dealers do not want certification in this country as it will prevent them from over-grading their coins and ripping people off.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>The PCGS and NGC system is of a standard so much higher than that of the vague British system as to defeat it utterly. Many UK dealers do not want certification in this country as it will prevent them from over-grading their coins and ripping people off. >>



This wee mouse concurs. These UK dealers who are used to passing off slider material are probably as perturbed as the U.S. henchmen of the 1970s and 1980s who saw their two-tiered market dissolve with the advent of the TPGs......methinks the Great Awakening across the pond (the Continent as well as the UK) is just beginning. I also think that collectors desiring true, no-questions "gems" from Edw. VII thru WWII will find them to be quite elusive after the dust has settled.

Jester, that was Bob's link, I just "linkified" it. I believe someone had posted it earlier last year, too.

Another "handling" tidbit......before anyone considered British to be hardly worthwhile in the 1970s a certain big West Coast dealer had placed an order for numerous Soho proofs from a certain big London dealer. These proof coins made the 6000+ mile trip in a manila envelope, merrily clanking all the way......utterly ruined after that trip if not thoroghly "thumbed" before the journey.....sad, very sad.

wybrit

And don't forget that almost every reputable dealer in the UK still puts coins in PVC flips - and dirty ones at that.

wybrit

Forget what other UK dealers may have told you about the American grading system. The PCGS and NGC system is of a standard so much higher than that of the vague British system as to defeat it utterly. Many UK dealers do not want certification in this country as it will prevent them from over-grading their coins and ripping people off.

I know what you mean. I just got two coins in the mail from UK dealers who overgraded in both cases by a whole grade. The pictures suggested the grades stated, but in hand, they're clearly inferior. Both sellers are now on my rapidly growing "don't trade with" list.

Returning to UK dealers overgraded, misclassified or cleaned coins is a nightmare. 50% or more of such encounters have not gone well. I've had two returns go "missing" in the mail in the last year and on most I lost out on postage both ways, which doubly hacks me off as it's their misrepresentation. I won't comment on the more emotional aspects of the problem.

I've quickly become more of a slab fan when it comes to buying coins. Certification is one of my best defenses against false item descriptions. It's certainly not perfect, but it does add credibility to a seller's claims. The one major concern I still have is that I am not sure the slabbers can tell the difference between maundy and currency 3ds.

agraded

methinks the Great Awakening across the pond (the Continent as well as the UK) is just beginning. I also think that collectors desiring true, no-questions "gems" from Edw. VII thru WWII will find them to be quite illusive when the dust has settled.

Mac, I agree. I'd be willing to bet a collector will see 10-20 sliders (most advertised as Unc.) for every "true" Unc. Edward VII Shilling/Florin/Halfcrown one will encounter. And to a lesser degree I think this true with many of the better date George V coins. I don't think you or Tom will disagree with this.

Jester, that was Bob's link, I just "linkified" it.

Thank you, but it really doesn't matter so long as the info is shared. I'm still a newbie here and have some learnin' to do (when I have the time).

As to the comments about improper handling, I have heard Bill Paul (American Heritage Minting) saying the same things as Bruce Lorich for many years. Proof and Mint State (or formerly Mint Sate) coins being thumbed and/or thrown into a wooden box with other coins. Acording to him (at one time) many UK dealers considered anything later than George I to be modern junk, regardless of condition. This is not intended as smugness or a knock uopn UK dealers/collectors, I'm just passing along some of what I've been told and seen for myself. Yeah, the times they are a changing.

Bob

coinkat

Agraded:

Thanks for the insight and while I am not able to witness what the sentiment is across the pond, I think we are very close to saying the same thing. I agree that QUALITY MS British prior to 1797 is rare. I will even go a step further that quality high end circ. is rare for many of the Monarchs and I will limit this to milled coins dating back To Cromwell and just keep hammered coinage out of this.

However, the market will expand in both areas because quality speaks for itself. While certain coins that are extremely rare may do better, these could also be alittle more risky and out of the price range of many collectors... with respect to coinage of Edward VII through WWII, I could not agree more.

cosmicdebris

Looks like my quest for a George II Shilling should have started much sooner.

coinkat

For the Young Head, that would be a yes... if you are willing to settle for a 1758, then you can still find an excellent example at a fairly affordable price.

cosmicdebris

Where? I have been looking but none of the examples have been good enough for me.

coinkat

I saw two at the Baltimore show in the $125-175 range which I thought was not too bad.

agraded

While certain coins that are extremely rare may do better, these could also be alittle more risky and out of the price range of many collectors.

Coinkat, I understand what you're saying. Look at a company like NE Numismatics whose upper upper end world coins are turned over at an amazing pace. In a market like this quality and rarity always find an eager audience. Should the market falter this would change....but let's don't go there. Moral: make hay while the sun shines.

Bob

1jester

Well, Bob (!!), thanks for the info.

I agree with Wybrit that the PVC deal is also an utterly disgusting and disgraceful blight on the numismatic scene. It's almost as if dealers WANTED to destroy coins en masse.

AndyBruce

If anyone is still after a copy of the Spink 2005 Guide then feel free to drop me a line.

(More coins books on the website)

Cheers

Andy

ajaan

Very interesting discussion on slabbed coins and British dealers. I have so a quite a few slabs to Brit dealers and have always wondered if they are cracked out or not. After reading some of the replies to this thread, I'm lead to think they weren't cracked.

Given all the horror stories I've heard about overgraded English coins being sold by European dealers, slabbing is in the future in Britain. I think it is only a matter of time.

coinkat

Time to move to the UK and set up a Grading Service

ajaan

I suggest the DKGS Dead King Grading Service, or Dork King Grading Service???

coinkat

Close... Duke of Dork's Grading Service (DDGS)

Aethelred

I could move POGS to a small flat on London's East End!