Mediæval gold

Sylvestius

Well chaps it finally arrived. I's a got my Henry VI noble, but is it S.1799 or S.1801? (That's numbers from my Seaby 1993 catalogue, hopefully they won't have changed).







Whatever it is i like it and i want another!

cosmicdebris

1jester

That's an awesome coin, Sylvestius! How large is it in diameter?

Aethelred

Great coin, but why don't you have a newer Spink catalog?

Sylvestius

<< <i>That's an awesome coin, Sylvestius! How large is it in diameter?



>>




It's a pretty round specimen so it's slap bang between 33 and 34mm in diameter. So it's practically the size of a $20 Lib.

However the thickness is a mere mm or so. So they are thin and you have to be gentle with them, gold being soft and all it's not a coin you'd want to crease/bend.

Quite heavy. Grades VF or better, which is practically the cream of the crop in hammered terms, nice lustre to it too.

Aethelred

There are few things in this world like medieval English gold, great addition to your collection!

JZrarities

Congrats!

I have wanted one for SOOooo Long...
I keep getting out bid.

Nice Coin

Sylvestius

<< <i>Great coin, but why don't you have a newer Spink catalog? >>




I don't generally like the catalogue that much, it's totally useless with regards to hammered issues. Coincraft is much better but it does not mention the Flemish imitations. Of which this could be one but a contemporary one of the same weight and standard of gold finess, just they nicked the designs for their own issues because it had become a trusted coin on the continent by 1422-27 when this was minted. I can't tell the difference myself between the imitations and the London/Calais versions, it wouldn't surprise me if the low lands didn't use the same dies either.

It's an annulett issue (hence all those round 'o's scattered all over the place, one on obverse, a good number on the reverse.)

Sylvestius

<< <i>Congrats!

I have wanted one for SOOooo Long...
I keep getting out bid.

Nice Coin
>>




Cost me $1750, I managed to trade in a battered Edward III Quarter noble as part payment which reduced it to about $1450. Which put it more in my range, but it practically broke the bank. Hence why i can't buy any more coins now till next year.

MSD61

Aethelred

There have been a lot of changes in Seaby/Spink over the last 12 years, I'm sure you would find it more useful that your 1993 edition. Having said that, there is a great deal of information that could be added which would make it a better catalog. That fact that everything from the Celts to QEII is covered, unlike Coincraft which I liked much better keep me buying Spink every year.

Sylvestius

If anyone wants a cheap Quarter noble, the one i sold to the dealer is now here...







As you can see it ain't great by any means, but at £190 it's about as cheap as they come.


Link

python

Congrats, that's a great looking coin. I've been wanting one myself but they're not cheap. I must say I'm a little jealous.

Sylvestius

<< <i>There have been a lot of changes in Seaby/Spink over the last 12 years, I'm sure you would find it more useful that your 1993 edition. Having said that, there is a great deal of information that could be added which would make it a better catalog. That fact that everything from the Celts to QEII is covered, unlike Coincraft which I liked much better keep me buying Spink every year. >>




I don't want the catalogue for the price guide (my coincraft is now spot on 5 years after it was published, the market's caught up). What i need catalogues for, is for identification purposes with pictures of every class. Spink still don't do this!

I have a North catalogue but that's quite a difficult catalogue to use, you really have to know what the coin is before you refer to North, if you're to get any sense out of it.

Sylvestius

<< <i>Congrats, that's a great looking coin. I've been wanting one myself but they're not cheap. I must say I'm a little jealous. >>




Now that makes a nice change, cos i'm usually jealous of your coins!

AuldFartte

That's incredible

python

<< <i>Now that makes a nice change, cos i'm usually jealous of your coins! >>

This isn't the first time, don't forget about the Stephrn penny.

Sylvestius

Oh yeah!

Can't forget Stephen can we...


If you think you're jealous of me and i'm jealous of you; now here's a guy we should be both jealous of;


Link of all Links


(I'd be happy just with his Tudor gold let alone the medieval stuff).

Sylvestius

But my real dream is this one, out of all the one there this would be the one i'd take home;

Sovereign



Queen Mary as well English coins don't get any better than that, plus it's a dated example.

GDJMSP

<< <i>

<< <i>Great coin, but why don't you have a newer Spink catalog? >>




I don't generally like the catalogue that much, it's totally useless with regards to hammered issues. Coincraft is much better but it does not mention the Flemish imitations. Of which this could be one but a contemporary one of the same weight and standard of gold finess, just they nicked the designs for their own issues because it had become a trusted coin on the continent by 1422-27 when this was minted. I can't tell the difference myself between the imitations and the London/Calais versions, it wouldn't surprise me if the low lands didn't use the same dies either. >>




The nobles of the low countries are quite different - they only appear similar at first glance. They can be easily determined by the legends as well as certain device designs. Your coin is definitely British but I do not have the necessary books to attribute it correctly.

Sylvestius

Hmm interesting;

Mr Bruce put it as Spinks 1801 and stated, Flemish imitation coinage.

You'ere suggesting it's S.1799, As far as i can work out these two look practically identical but there must be a way of telling.

I'd be inclined to agree with you on it being S.1799, Cos it looks exactly like the one in the picture


I might have to study the legend closer.

Sylvestius

<< <i>The nobles of the low countries are quite different - they only appear similar at first glance. They can be easily determined by the legends as well as certain device designs. Your coin is definitely British but I do not have the necessary books to attribute it correctly. >>




When you say that, you're not thinking of your noble are you?

Your noble is actually based upon the later English Ryal, Ryals were introduced in the 1450s or so (can't remember off of the top of my head), they looked like nobles but had a rose on the ship's obverse and the reverse was different.

I think there might be a number of continental versions, some of the earlier Noble and some of the later Ryal. Both of them on the continent being confusingly referred to as Nobles.


There was also a value difference; Nobles like mine were worth 80 pence, whilst Ryals were worth 120 pence.

1jester

"However the thickness is a mere mm or so. So they are thin and you have to be gentle with them, gold being soft and all it's not a coin you'd want to crease/bend.

Quite heavy. Grades VF or better, which is practically the cream of the crop in hammered terms, nice lustre to it too." --Sylvestius


I know they're extremely thin, and you're so right about not wanting to crease/bend them. I'm always surprised, even awed by hammered gold that isn't bent. And i think it's neat how old hammered gold, with its extremely thin planchet, takes on the shape of the details of the opposite side of the coin.

Sylvestius

<< <i>I know they're extremely thin, and you're so right about not wanting to crease/bend them. I'm always surprised, even awed by hammered gold that isn't bent. And i think it's neat how old hammered gold, with its extremely thin planchet, takes on the shape of the details of the opposite side of the coin.

>>




I know i was thinking about that, no clashed dies leading to 'ghosting' which is quite common on the silver pennies of this period with the crosses showing through on the obverse.


But of course the relief is rather low so it's alleviated somewhat.

If you look at English 17th and 18th century coins the obverse relief was often so high that the reverses are always practically flat stencil drawn shields so that they wouldn't draw out much metal from the planchett. Even then sometimes the obverse will suck extra metal away from the reverse, so if it didn't have enough to begin with...

1jester

"But my real dream is this one, out of all the one there this would be the one i'd take home;

Sovereign



Queen Mary as well English coins don't get any better than that, plus it's a dated example." --Sylvestius



Wow, it's spectacular!!!

mrpaseo

<< <i>Oh yeah!

Can't forget Stephen can we...


If you think you're jealous of me and i'm jealous of you; now here's a guy we should be both jealous of;


Link of all Links


(I'd be happy just with his Tudor gold let alone the medieval stuff). >>



Holy crapbag those are some nice gold pieces... To bad they are beyond any budget I'll ever have.

Sylvestius

You and me both.

Aethelred

Sylvestius rates a great big "YOU SUCK" for this one!

Sylvestius

AT LAST!


About time too...

python

Wow, love that Tudor gold.

GDJMSP

<< <i>

<< <i>The nobles of the low countries are quite different - they only appear similar at first glance. They can be easily determined by the legends as well as certain device designs. Your coin is definitely British but I do not have the necessary books to attribute it correctly. >>




When you say that, you're not thinking of your noble are you?

Your noble is actually based upon the later English Ryal, Ryals were introduced in the 1450s or so (can't remember off of the top of my head), they looked like nobles but had a rose on the ship's obverse and the reverse was different.

I think there might be a number of continental versions, some of the earlier Noble and some of the later Ryal. Both of them on the continent being confusingly referred to as Nobles.


There was also a value difference; Nobles like mine were worth 80 pence, whilst Ryals were worth 120 pence. >>




No Sylvester - I am speaking of the low countries gold nobles from the same time period as yours. By the way - I do believe your coin is 1801. That is based solely on pictures of coins I have that have been attributed by Spinks or others as I do not have a Spinks catalog myslef. But to my point.

The legend of your coin should be - and I believe it is based on what I can make out in the pics.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (often abbreviated) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRAN(S)IENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).



Here are some of the legends found on various gold nobles struck in the low countries during the same time period.

From Flanders 1405 - 1419 -

Obverse legend: IOHS DEI GRA DVX BVRG COMES Z DNS FLAND

And on the reverse of the coin in the center is the letter I - not an H as on your coin.



Again from Flanders 1419 - 1467 -

Obverse legend: PHS DEI G DVX BVRG Z COMES FLAND

This coin has a P in the center of the reverse.


These are but a couple of examples. There are others and the differences are similar. There are some issues with different flags, slight variations in the design of the ship itself, and other minor design changes. But in all cases - there are notable differences. I think what may be the source of your confusion over this issue is that English gold nobles were also struck at the mint in Calais as well as the mint in London. But at the time the mint in Calais was under English control and the coins were issued under English authority. These coins do indeed carry the same designs and legends as the coins minted in London. They do sometimes however have a different mint mark.

And by the time the rose noble of mine that you refered to was issued - there were even more changes to the design and the legends found on the coins that made those issued in the low countries even more different than the rose ryal issued in England. It is only at first glance that the coins appear to be the same whether it is with nobles or ryals. Certainly the basic design was copied, but during the time period it was true for many coinage designs in many different countries. But there were almost always differences that distinguish one coin from another.

Sylvestius

The Calais mint ones have a flag on the stern of the ship.

What is the difference between 1799 and 1801 exactly, is it the legend? Sounds like you're reference material's better than mine.

GDJMSP

<< <i>The Calais mint ones have a flag on the stern of the ship.

What is the difference between 1799 and 1801 exactly, is it the legend? Sounds like you're reference material's better than mine. >>




Well sort of - but there may well be other diagnostics I am unaware of. Notice the DNS directly above the crown on your coin ? Well on the S-1799 the HYB is directly above the crown.

Sylvestius

Got it! excellent...

GDJMSP

Ya know Sylvester - one of these days I'm gonna have to start collecting these British nobles

Sylvestius

No you're not...

Don't be absurd, no interest in this area whatsoever. *whistling*

GDJMSP

You're right of course - what was I thinking

Oh I get it now - I wasn't thinking

AndyBruce

Well, well, well, Sylvestius - fancy seeing you here! You do get around don't you!

And what's more parading my HVI noble too. Well, I say 'my' but it's true that rightful ownership has now passed to you.

Glad you (and everyone else) like it. Plenty more coins where that came from!

AndyBruce

Slyvestius - guess you might have missed my post on this thread.......

Sylvestius

Yeah i did!

1jester

Welcome to the Darkside, Andy!!!

Sylvestius

Andy IS the darkside! Have you seen all the coins he has for sale?

Link

AndyBruce

Thanks guys! It's good to be here!