The thing I like most about this Bonds Cr@p!!
kuhlmann
Posts: 3,326 ✭✭
Is this a$$hole (Barry Bonds) took himself out of the mlb players association. He is not in card packs no more for the last 2 years. he was planning on releasing hes own sets cards etc.. now back fired and im happy as for kids that really wanted his new cards( i think its great they didnt have to collect them)!
Barry you the man take yourself out of packs of cards to make more money on the side when your already making 17 million a year! so kids that at one time looked up to you cant collect you anymore! now pay for what you did! I DIDNT KNOW I WAS TAKING ROIDS!! LOL THATS LIKE BILL CLINTON SAYING HE DIDNT INHALE!
RETIRE BARRY DONT PASS RUTH IT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK WORSE. MCGWIRE WAS A CLASS ACT AND I HOPE HE NEVER TOOK THE JUICE TO GET AHEAD, BUT IM NO DUMMY! MCGWIRE DID THE RIGHT THING BY LEAVING THE GAME BEFORE HE CRUSHED ALL RECORDS!
BONDS YOU ARE GOING TO GET EVERYTHING YOU DESERVE!
Barry you the man take yourself out of packs of cards to make more money on the side when your already making 17 million a year! so kids that at one time looked up to you cant collect you anymore! now pay for what you did! I DIDNT KNOW I WAS TAKING ROIDS!! LOL THATS LIKE BILL CLINTON SAYING HE DIDNT INHALE!
RETIRE BARRY DONT PASS RUTH IT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK WORSE. MCGWIRE WAS A CLASS ACT AND I HOPE HE NEVER TOOK THE JUICE TO GET AHEAD, BUT IM NO DUMMY! MCGWIRE DID THE RIGHT THING BY LEAVING THE GAME BEFORE HE CRUSHED ALL RECORDS!
BONDS YOU ARE GOING TO GET EVERYTHING YOU DESERVE!
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If Bonds goes south, his RC's will have real good company on....
Cal Eldreds
Pete Incaviglia
Jay Buhner
Brien Taylor
Greg Jefferies
Joe Charboneau
Phil Plantier
Carl Everett
Todd Van Poppel
Pat Listach
Jose Conseco
Darryl Stawberry
Doc Gooden
Please feel free to add on!
your friend
Mike
edit: went back to read the next response and realized that I was referring to the depreciation of the cards as a shame - I was not trying to characterize all these players...for many, there is no shame in failing to live up to the expectations of the fans, club, media, collectors etc.
Sell 'em if you got 'em
Bonds can join the list with his former teammate, Bobby Bonilla
Might as well stick Bo Jackson, Mike Greenwell, Wally Joyner, Jim Abbott and Eric Davis on the list also
My head is fine where it is. read that again says im no dummy meaning i know he did!
Shall we ban them all, or just the guys who break records?
McGuire left the game because his body had been completely broken down. If all we are doing is going on innuendo right now, he is the perfect example of what steroids and enhancements (legal or otherwise) can do to a body.
I dont remember hearing much from him when Bonds broke his record. I think part of it was shock because he thought it would stand for a long time. But the other part was that he couldnt say anything about potential enhancement use because he was guilty of that himself.
All of this will blow over soon enough. Its up to the players union to take a stand. But like most unions, they will do whats right for the members first.
<< <i>
RETIRE BARRY DONT PASS RUTH IT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK WORSE. MCGWIRE WAS A CLASS ACT AND I HOPE HE NEVER TOOK THE JUICE TO GET AHEAD, BUT IM NO DUMMY! MCGWIRE DID THE RIGHT THING BY LEAVING THE GAME BEFORE HE CRUSHED ALL RECORDS!
>>
Let me get your logic straight. McGwire used steroids, but is a "class act" because he retired before he "crushed all records."
Ok.
I guess McGwire never broke any big records, huh?
<< <i>Shall we ban them all, or just the guys who break records? >>
bxb
Excellent point - breaking the rules is breaking the rules and the stature of the player is irrelevant....I mentioned this on another thread....the only thing that will probably work is a "General Amnesty" where major league baseball gets all of the players to fess up...give time for them to clean up and then start drug testing for real...they do it in the military and many big companies require it as a part of employment...I see no "invasion of privacy" issue here...baseball right now has a big image problem to fix IMO.
your friend
Mike
edit: spelling/grammar
<< <i>this is one mans opionion and im sticking to iy! >>
Chris
I agree and defend your right to do so.
your friend
Mike
Stone - I agree that the amnisty program makes a lot of sense,
except for, how do we view the records set by the cheaters ?
A lot of the charm of baseball is the stats.
If they don't mean anything anymore, then where do we go from here ?
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>A lot of the charm of baseball is the stats. >>
Wolf
I know that you are a big football guy but if you love baseball like I do...then yes, this is a dilemma.
I would have to think about it...but the stats will have to be either footnoted or "grouped" - before, during and after the "drug era" - this is tough but people can learn to adjust...afterall, if one were to look at the stats from roughly 1900-1920 people not in-the-know would think guys didn't know how to hit a home run.
Well, you and I know this was the "dead ball era." So we already look at stats with certain necessary implied knowledge to interpret them.
That's about all I can come up with after a Bud sixer and a bowl of doritos!
your friend
Mike
I'll make it even more clear. He hit 70 homeruns. Remember now? So, you simply cannot say that McGwire retired before he broke any records. You can say that Aaron's mark is the single most glamorous record in sport, but Roger Maris' was a close second.
If you're a McGwire fan and want to say there's no evidence he used illegal steroids, that's fine. I'll even agree with you. But you can't say that you think he took illegal drugs but respect him because he retired before he broke the big records. That's just wrong.
What i meant about him being a class act i guess i have to elaborate on. He gave so much back to the fans and the kids. money for charities signed auto's dealt with the media professionaly. and he didnt take himself out of card packs just to make more money on the side like bonds did. That is one of my biggest problem with bonds is how could he do that to kids that like collecting him. guy is just a pure a$$hole. I hope they put ****** by all his numbers!
<< <i>I DIDNT KNOW I WAS TAKING ROIDS!! LOL THATS LIKE BILL CLINTON SAYING HE DIDNT INHALE! >>
and that did not hurt Clinton one bit,
did it?
<< <i>this a$$hole (Barry Bonds) took himself out of the mlb players association.
RETIRE BARRY DONT PASS RUTH IT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU LOOK WORSE.
BONDS YOU ARE GOING TO GET EVERYTHING YOU DESERVE! >>
You have a lot of anger issues, kuhlmann.
You need to seek counseling ASAP, before
you hurt yourself or others.
What about if he made those records against PITCHERS who were also on steroids?
Remember, its not only hitters that have been suspected. If you want to look at body growth from when they were rookies, look no further than Roger Clemens.
There will be no asterisks or anything of the like.
But remember that the illegal use has been by both pitchers and hitters.
<< <i>Everybody is talking about ... >>
who is Everybody?
<< <i>Everybody is talking about putting an asterisk by certain hitting feats if they were obtained from a hitter that used steriods? >>
Keith
Not sure if steroids truly help pitchers...but as it goes for the asterisk...the whole thing is going to be tough to figure out...in the end the decision on how to handle records may become very arbitrary by the people with power to deliver a judgement....perhaps records will be re-worked and a list of current record holders may be modified:
single season HR Leader: Roger Maris - 61*
*anyone higher was a cheat! Who knows? The problem is that this issue is out there and everyone is being lumped in one group - what a shame for the ones not doing it - but baseball has to move quickly to fix this before spring training IMO.
your friend
Mike
My point was that everyone is talking about hitting statistics, but there have been many pitchers who have been suspected of using steroids or supplements as well.
My guess is that none of this will really go as far as many of us might like it to go.
<< <i>I was being somewhat facetious >>
Keith
So was I to a degree...also dramatic...if not much is done by baseball this year...people will just have to personally adjust their thinking when looking at records IMO.
your friend
Mike
His basic argument is this: stats are facts. Ted Williams hit .406. Barry Bonds hit 73 homeruns. Nothing will change that.
Asterisks are opinions. It is someone's opinion that Bonds' 73 homeruns are less valuable or less meaningful or less "something" than McGwire's 70 or Maris' 61. Now, this opinion is, perhaps, very widely held. But, it is still an opinion. If you start adding opinions to the record books, you will muddy the discussion and eventually lose sight of what is fact and what is opinion.
Bonds feats will be forever tainted by what we learned this week. As they should be.
But, having a record book that shows Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Roger Maris as the all-time single season homerun leader would simply be not factual.
We all know that baseball is defined by its statistics. I believe those statistics and records should be as accurate as they possibly can be.
Bonds hit his homers. They need to stay in the record book. Let the arguments about the relative value and meaning of those homers continue in the chat rooms, message boards, newspaper columns and literature, as it should. Just don't inject opinion into the record book.
<< <i>Just don't inject opinion into the record book. >>
ajw
I see your points and they are well taken...but if it is truly determined that Bonds took steroids and they do affect the ability to whack a ball out of the stadium...then those will be "facts" and not "opinion" which will probably need to be documented IMO.
your friend
Mike
The fact that Bonds took steroids will be well documented for eternity. The opinion that Bonds stats are less meaningful may be held by the vast majority of those baseball fans, and of the general public. But, that opinion should NOT be in the official record. The record is simply an accounting of what happened on the field. Bonds hit his homers. No one can't say he didn't. All anyone can say is that they have an opinion that his homers are less meaningful.
There are so many differences between the time of the old records and the time of the new. Babe hit many of his HRs at a time when not many teams were hitting that many. Does that deserve some kind of special asterisk that makes his taters count for more?
Even without steroids, today's athletes are muscle-bound fitness fanatics compared to 75 years ago. They work out relentlessly, watch their diets, have professional trainers. Babe worked out at the nearest pizzeria. Again, should Babe get plus points for his accomplishments because he didn't have the physical and medical weapons of today's athletes? By medical I don't mean supplements or drugs, I mean treatment and therapy that keeps an athlete going.
Even out of shape, Babe swung a bat almost 1 pound heavier than today's models, and he hit softer, deader baseballs. With all these factors,
how many modern-era HRs does it take to equal Babe's 714? Maybe 900? 1,000?
I love how MLB can ban Pete Rose for GAMBLING and call him a cheater and let DRUG USERS off. What is the worst of the two? Gambling or Using Drugs?
I'm not calling Rose a saint or anything close to it, but the man got more from his talent than anyone who every played the game and he has become a freakshow for ESPN jokes because he gambled. Bond and the "roid" gang cheated their way to the top by using ILLEGAL DRUGS and everyone wants to shrug it off like "No big deal" and give them a pass.
Cheating is cheating, no matter how many ways you slice it up. If you ban P. Rose then you must ban Bonds, Giambi, Canseco, Sosa, McGwire and EVERYONE who every used it.
By the way, take them completely out of all MLB books, just like they never played. Because if you don't, then what are you going to tell all the kids who have dreams of playing in the show. "Its OK to use steroid, but we will have to put a (*) by all your #'s, but don't worry 50% of the player after 1990 have them next to their names"
Once again, just my .02!
Mark
The Bonds and Rose issues are completely different. Baseball is NOT saying that gambling is the worst sin in the world, or that it's worse that using drugs in the scheme of life. Baseball has, however, said consistently since 1919 that gambling on the game is the single most serious violation of league rules that a player/official can make.
The reason Rose is banned for life is NOT because gambling is bad. The reason is that the rules of baseball say gambling on the game gets you banned for life.
The rules of baseball say using steroids gets you punished, but first through counseling (or something) then through a short ban, and the penalties get progressively more serious if you continue to test positive.
You don't have to agree with the different punishments, but baseball punishes players who break baseball's rules and the punishments are also set by baseball's rules. Until those rules are changed, gambling will continue to be the single most serious violation a player can make. You may wish to see the punishment levels altered, but simply ignoring the current rules is not an option.
No asterisks on the records because it wasn't against the rules at the time, and you can't really prove it makes your numbers better. For every Bonds, McGwre, Giambi, Sosa that hits 50 home runs, there are hundreds if not thousands on the same substances that are riding the pine, riding the buses, or riding something else. I'm not condoning the use of illegal substances, but let's face it, in every sport, professional or amatuer, athletes are going to use whatever they can get away with to get an edge. In the case of MLB, that meant anything and everything.
That's more like fried chicken and beer. The guy's a fat turd.