Wild toned 1891-cc Morgan PCGS MS64 - updated

roadrunner

A local dealer just got back a semi PL 1991-cc Morgan from PCGS (MS64). I saw the coin when it went in raw and it looked worthy of 65 consideration. And no, I couldn't buy it then either. I had graded it 64+/65 on surfaces. On top of all that it has "near-wild" obverse coloration consisting of magenta, yellow, and mint green. This gives Miss Lib a nice cameo effect and the coin a stunning overall appearance. The reverse is untoned except for the rim. Probably bag toned but not the usual crescent pattern, but nearly as striking. The obverse is completely toned from end to end. It could have been bag toning since the reverse is untoned. The toning is very transparent, lighter rather than on the dark side, with the luster and PL surfaces busting through it.

I don't own a CC dollar and didn't get caught up in this pricing run-up. But this coin has me enamored. The dealer is aware that a good premium exists plus the coin is PQ. It would not be inconceivable that NGC could MS65 it (slim imo). But with a spread of $1300 CDN bid in 64 to $3900 in 65, how do you figure such a coin? If this was a seated half, I'd pay 25-30% premium for this color. If it were a common $50 MS64 Morgan, I'd pay $100-150 for it no sweat. But figuring a scarcer CC date seems to be a different ball-game. It's not monster-monster A+ color but a solid "A" on my scale. I felt the range for the coin was $1500-3000 with $1800-2200 probably being realistic. A 1.5-2X color premium. If someone has paid 65 money for a toned 64 then at least I know I'm not nuts. Rather than risk some hotshot coming by and snagging it for $1500 I hinted that I'd be much stronger than that. Right now it's not for sale until the seller hones in the value. I gave him a fair starting point.

Any toned Morgan dollar hunters have any suggestion if I'm about to bury myself at those levels?

roadrunner

airplanenut

If the toning's nice enough to get a star, he might want to send it to NGC... if not, well, it really depends on exactly how the coin looks (or based on how much he paid, of course )

Jeremy

roadrunner

The dealer bought it raw and certainly paid no more than $500-800 for it. He's going to do well and knew that when he bought it. He sent it in figuring it might 65. The spread was too big not to send it.

I guess another way to phrase the question is how much would the best toned MS64 1891-cc dollar be worth. Would a monster knockout MS64 bring more than an very average dipped out MS65?
I'd have to think so.

roadrunner

coinkat

good luck in your efforts to buy it. I really do not get caught up in the wild toning on any Morgan, however, if the coin is that attractive, I think that your doing the right thing by conveying a message that you will be a strong buyer. What is the right price? I am not sure, but I don't think the 1891-cc was a date that was that common in terms of the GSA hoard... not like the 82-84-cc dollars.

morgannut2

To give you a starting point-- I just bid $975 (got it) for a 1891-CC in PCGS MS-64 at Bowers/Merena Auction tonite. It had the most disgusting, ugly, but original toning on the reverse I have ever seen! It should have 62'd for grungyness alone!!

ddbird

Coin price shouldnt matter...I have payed 150% premiums for coins that I enjoy, keep in mind they were ALOT cheaper coins. The way I test, is I walk away, and I have a second thought about it, I buy it. If you like the color, and think its a nice coin, premium shouldnt matter.

roadrunner

thanks all.

roadrunner

Well after thinking I would pay up to $2000 for a coin that lists for $1200, turns out that I wasn't even in the ballpark. Another dealer wandered through, saw the coin, and offered $4000 (MS65 money).
Guess it was a better deal at $2000 than I thought!

Talk about getting blown out of the water. Even so, it's still not for sale and will likely end up in an auction.

I did manage to buy a killer pair of toned 1882 Morgan dollars in MS64. Something to keep me occupied knowing that the 91-cc got away.

roadrunner

Bear

Roadrunner, I have found that sometimes, you really do have to walk away.

There will always be another opportunity down the road. There are limits that

even we kwazy collectors should not exceed.

roadrunner

You're right Bear. And as a rule, I walk away about 90% of the time from potential purchases.

roadrunner

Stuart

Roadrunner: I'm with Bear on this one. There will be another one that comes up which you will like.

TONEDDOLLARS

Roadrunner, since when did you get into the toned dollar market. Stay out will you please.

roadrunner

I'm just a sucker for nice coins. If it catches my eye, I'm interested.
There was also a neat obverse toned 1883-cc in PCGS65 that I did pass on. While I loved the look of the coin, I just didn't want to pay a 30% premium for color.

Today I looked at some really neat colonials and bust coins. So you just never know what gets to you. A beautifully toned and original 1800 bust dime in AU was also shown to me today. I fell in love again.

roadrunner

Newmismatist

<< <i>Right now it's not for sale until the seller hones in the value. >>





<< <i>Well after thinking I would pay up to $2000 for a coin that lists for $1200, turns out that I wasn't even in the ballpark. Another dealer wandered through, saw the coin, and offered $4000 >>



Hmm guess it really was for sale - My experience is that nice coins sell for premiums

roadrunner

Really isn't for sale as the coin is still put away by the seller. This is just one method sellers take to find the true value of "special" coins they are not familiar with. As various buyers take shots, the price goes up. Eventually it stops going up and that's when a price gets established. Usually the first one in loses out (me).

roadrunner

morgannut2

Feel free to make all the lowball offers you want on other coins to this dealer. If a "professional" doesn't know what he thinks a coin is worth, why should you? And tell him so.

Sunnywood

roadrunner (velocitus extremissimus),

after you have paid an 800% premium for color, 30% doesn't seem so bad !! it's all a question of how amazing & how irreplaceable the quality and appearance are ...

Best,
Sunnywood

roadrunner

Sunnywood, good point. My tops so far for color has been 2x. I haven't been challenged any higher. This coin is going for 3x.

If you look at the Vermeulle 1893-s Morgan (MS67) which has neat color imo, can you ask a 3X premium for that? Takes if from $700k to
$2.1 Mill. ? Not likely. At some point the color premium has to go away. But where? $25,000? $50,000? $100,000?

roadrunner

morgannut2

Except in rare cases, the color premium decreases as the importance of rarity "keyness" increases. It is totally supplanted at the high end by comparisons of "eye appeal" and originality on like-graded key-date coins. The actual dollar number isn't controling, because different semi-keys etc. are at very different absolute price levels for different series. Bottem line: the toned premiums are a marketing tool to make a common coin seem "special" to a potential buyer.

roadrunner

Unfortunately if you always lowball the same seller, you ultimately get nothing. There will always be other sharp people coming by to let the seller know they'd pay a lot more. Your perceived credibility and skill goes out the window eventually. End of ballgame. This same shop was under different ownership from the 1960's through the 1990's. And during that regime, I wasn't even allowed to look at the coins that come over the years. Early bust stuff came in quite frequently. A major west coast dealer had this east coast store "locked" up for years. They'd hold everything back until he arrived on one of his buying trips. He'd take it all. And the sad part was they weren't the best graders and he ripped them blind all those years, especially once PCGS was created. He probably made a $$ million or more on those guys. At least now the shop is "open" once again for business.

In this case, I'd rather at least have the opportunity to buy neat coins once in a while than get nothing. I make offers on other people's coins all the time. Why it does bother my that I have to often quote my price when selling, and also quote a price when buying, if that's what it takes to keep a foothold, then that's what you do.

roadrunner