Is what Jason Giambi did (and others are rumored to do/did) worse than Pete Rose??
StevenJackson39
Posts: 252
in Sports Talk
I think so, and the players found guilty should be banned. however- what is your opinions?
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I can understand how Bonds and Sosa fans want to deny the fact that they are using steroids. I never could say that I believe Rose bet on baseball, although I knew he had to have bet on baseball.
Giambi's taking steroids certainly helped him hit with more power, translating into at least a marginal boost in HR production.
Seems pretty clear cut to me which is worse from a performance/player perspective ...
aconte
the entire sport. Bonds and Giambi are only hurting themselves.
All of them are cheaters however and their records should include a * or maybe a ch designation. A Cheater
is a cheater no matter what.
JS
There is absolutley no Question Pete Rose's situation is FAR worse than anything Barry Bonds and 85% of all other MLB players have "allegedly" done. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!
However I do feel that Rose's on the field accomplishments should put him in Cooperstown.
MLB survived the Rose situation perfectly fine - can you honestly say that the current situation (and MLB's cover-up/inaction) hasn't affected the sport's popularity at all?
I disagree with you on this for this reason only, and I may be wrong.
If Pete Rose bet on the Reds to win, then he was betting on his team
and trying his best for his team to win. Yes, betting is wrong, but Pete's
job as a manager was not influenced in an adverse way (i.e. putting in a bad pitcher because he bet the Reds to lose).
He was doing his best to make his team win. He in no way "cheated" to influence the outcome of the game.
What Giambi did was cheat to influence the outcome of the game.
Pete Rose did not cheat to win a game if he only bet on his team to win.
Should the Yankees win over Boston in Game 7 when Boone hit the 11th inning home run off Wakefield now
be removed from the books ? Giambi hit two home runs off Pedro that night.
Olympic athletes have their medals taken away if they test positive for
performance enhancing drugs. I believe that all of Giambi's records WHILE
ON STERIODS should be wiped away from the major league record books.
HE SHOULD PAY A PRICE FOR HIS ACTIONS !!!
If he doesn't, Joe Jackson (who had great series statistics) will
be turning over in his grave.
Perkdog,
What is your logic or analysis behind why what Rose did was worse ?
No smack here, I would just appreciate your perspective.
My personal opinion only. IF Pete Rose bet against the Reds....I dont know the details of his actions but one would assume he had to bet against his team one time or another maybe to get out of the "hole", in this case He could have pitched guys who might not have been ready for example. Maybe played guys that were not 100%, ect. ect. I cant base them on anything as I really did not follow the story all that much. OK Bonds alleged use of steroids. I truly believe that at least 85% of ballplayers could have allegedly used them. Cheating? Im not sure that it gives you that much of an advantage...Taking steroids does not make you bat .300 or hit 4 HR's in a game, or pitch shutout ball. The game is still a TEAM effort. Playing one position and batting third does not outweigh a managers influence on a baseball game.
I disagree mainly because there was never anything I've heard to indicate Rose did anything "obvious" (if at all) to ever influence the outcome of a game by substituting the best available player with anything less. Further, playing one position and batting third certainly can outweigh anything the manager can ever do. The managers make decisions, but in the end it's the players performance than wins or loses the games. A pitcher can almost determine a game by himself on certain nights (granted, he needs the catcher but ya know what I mean).
And yes, steroids does make quite a difference. Granted, there are players that may have just as much strength that have not used 'roids, but they had to work harder and for a longer period of time to obtain the same results. There are other benefits offered through steroids that I have heard of such as making it easier to play through pain and motivating players or making it easier to focus.
Rose's actions are way more wide-reaching than the actions of Bonds, Giambi, et al. A handful of steroid hounds going unchecked, and you can still have baseball. A handful of Rose clones going unchecked, and baseball as we know it disappears and becomes as legitimate as WWE.
I have said it here before and I'll say it again. The whole, "he only bet on his team, so its ok" argument is so flawed. He didn't bet Reds games every day. He was very selective. He played them when he had his best lineup out there or if his bullpen was fully rested. How do you think he managed on the days that he didn't bet on them? Perhaps holding back a certain key reliever because he knew he would be betting the Reds the next day? You have to look at this from a bettor's perspective (because that's exactly what Rose was), and not just from a baseball fan's perspective.
Let me put it this way. If we found out tomorrow that Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Eric Gagne, Mike Piazza and others, or that Joe Torre, Jack McKeon and Bobby Cox were betting on baseball, betting on games involving their own teams and affecting the outcome of games and admitted to such, that story would blow this steroid story away. And THAT is why Rose had to be banned and made an example of, to try and prevent anything like what I described above from ever happening. Because that would kill baseball faster than anything else.
Bonds and all the other Roiders cheated the game!
aconte
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A manager absolutley outweighs any one player as far as a baseball game is concerned. If you ever played ball you would know this....(Im not talking little league either)
P.S. Now that Bonds' testimony has been publicized, you can stop using the word "alleged"
steroids have not been illegal in the MLB until a few years ago. bad, unethical, immoral? yes. illegal? not when they allegedly took them
edited to add: The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 placed anabolic steroids into Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) as of February 27, 1991. (see link)
Speaking of Kevin, do you live in Tampa? I was just there and went to Mons Venus - WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd go broke if I lived in Tampa
Ummm, they are illegal "within the law". Were not talking about something he did that merely broke MLB rules, but their use is against the law unless a doctor prescribed them because his body had a problem producing testosterone which isn't the case.
Steroid users are affecting records.
Statistics are what keep baseball going.
Steroid use is worse.
<< <i>absolutely not. Pete Rose knew gambling was illegal, and he knowingly broke the rules
steroids have not been illegal in the MLB until a few years ago. bad, unethical, immoral? yes. illegal? not when they allegedly took them >>
agreed.
and Pete knew what he was doing was wrong.
Barry said he did not even know that
the Cream he used for his arthritis had
steroids in it.
Ty Cobb was a racist, as were most of his contemporaries in the hall of fame.
Pete Rose bet on baseball games, as did less famous players.
Willy Mays refused to sign an autograph for me when I was a kid; he wasn't the only one.
At least 50% of all current major league baseball players use or have used illegal steroids and/or uppers.
None of these examples casts a nice light on the great game.
Shall we ban them all, or will we continue on with our exercise in situational ethics, in which each person, each society, decides what is morally and legally acceptable, and what is right and what is wrong fluctuates based on the rules of the day? Should we just close down the hall of fame, or should we focus only on what happens between the white lines and say, we are all human, we all make mistakes, but these guys could really play baseball well?
My $0.02.
<< <i>At least 50% of all current major league baseball players use or have used illegal steroids and/or uppers. >>
Of all the things you listed this is the only one that affected the numbers achieved on the field
by major leaguers. This is why the current baseball era is now known as the juice ball era. It is
also why Barry Bonds is sometimes confused as the Mets mascot. The affect on the game is
tremendous. It shows how the court of public opinion has already found Bonds guilty which is
important to know.
aconte
That said, Nothing can be worse for the health of the game of Baseball than allowing gambling to occur within its ranks. Kennesaw Mountain Landis and the owners realized it many years ago. They made examples of the Black Sox and made it clear to everyone that forever more, it would absolutely, positively, not be tolerated under any circumstances.
Only a collosal moron (Rose) would break the rules and he deserves whatever penalty he gets. As long as Shoeless Joe Jackson remains banned, so should Rose. And to allow Rose to have anything to do with a major league team again would be catastrophic.
Baseball will always have players with poor moral character. There always has been and always will be cheaters, boozers, drug users, racists (black and white), and criminals. The game can survive them all. To allow gambling to exist without the most extreme penalty as a deterent will destroy Baseball.
What Rose did with respect to the game was worse.
HOF Quarterbacks Football
First, I don't ever believe Pete ever bet against the Reds or did anything to influence the game. Maybe I am naive but my gut tells me he didn't.
Second and most important, the people Pete was placing bets with were not the Catholic Priests down the street. These were "bad guys" and probably associated with the mob somehow. So, let's say Petey goes on a losing streak and now he is down $1M. Pete doesn't have that much cash. Now Bruiser and Tommy "Two Times" pays him a visit. "Pete, since you don't have the money, you are going to throw the next 2 games or, we are going to break your legs, your son's arms and beat your wife". This isn't fantasy..........read up on the mob.
This is exactly the reason not betting on baseball is the sacred rule and MLB HAS to have a zero tolerance. Once these guys get into the game, you lose ALL integrity. What's worse is Pete is a student of the game. He knows ALL the rules let alone this one. What drove him to be an all-time great also was his down fall.
So, which one was worse.................Pete was.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>I grew up watching Pete play as a kid in Ohio. He was, has been and always be my favorite player. However, I don't believe he should ever be allowed in the HOF......EVER. Here is a common flaw people are missing (including myself for a long time).
First, I don't ever believe Pete ever bet against the Reds or did anything to influence the game. Maybe I am naive but my gut tells me he didn't.
Second and most important, the people Pete was placing bets with were not the Catholic Priests down the street. These were "bad guys" and probably associated with the mob somehow. So, let's say Petey goes on a losing streak and now he is down $1M. Pete doesn't have that much cash. Now Bruiser and Tommy "Two Times" pays him a visit. "Pete, since you don't have the money, you are going to throw the next 2 games or, we are going to break your legs, your son's arms and beat your wife". This isn't fantasy..........read up on the mob.
This is exactly the reason not betting on baseball is the sacred rule and MLB HAS to have a zero tolerance. Once these guys get into the game, you lose ALL integrity. What's worse is Pete is a student of the game. He knows ALL the rules let alone this one. What drove him to be an all-time great also was his down fall.
So, which one was worse.................Pete was.
Mark >>
Great post, Mark. And right on target.
Here is an article just recently written by Fay Vincent on the topic, as well.
Vincent on Rose & the HOF
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<< <i>Also consider, along those lines, if Pete is placing bets with mob sources, but only on the Reds to win, what can the bookie (and his mob connections) infer on the nights Pete chooses not to bet on the Reds? >>
Exactly. This is why the "Pete never bet on the Reds to lose!" line doesn't hold any water. Just because he's not intentionally throwing games doesn't mean things are fully on the up-and-up. Does Pete handle things differently knowing he's got money on a game? Does he blow out his bullpen to try and win 1 game because of a bet when that could hurt his team for the next 3?
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524