Follow-up question: Redbook or Breen ?

ss350camaro

Which do you trust more ?

(this is a result of a thread about a Proof 1893 Commemorative on eBay graded NTC PR-63) Text

According to one poster in that other thread Breen says there's only one 1893 Proof minted.
According to the 2004 and 2005 Redbook there were Approx 100 of each year 1892 & 1893.

Which one is right ?

ldhair

I have to think Red Book.
Breen is about 15-20 years old at this point and much of his info.
was opinion. A great book but somethings are questionable.

ss350camaro

Steve27

In general I agree with ldhair, Breen had a lot of errors in his books. However, as for this specific case, the info on this web site says:

"Cardboard boxes had been prepared for the reception of the coins, much like those in which pills are sold. No finger touched the first of the souvenirs, but the pliers gently clutched it by the rim and conveyed the $10,000 lump to the box which was immediately sealed and handed to the World's Fair commissioner. After the delivery of the first coin the foreman and his assistant continued coining by hand until they had struck 100 Proof pieces, occupying about an hour in the task. Power was then applied, and the actual work of making 5,000,000 half dollars went rapidly ahead .... "

I forgot to mention that this comes from a "Swiatek-Breen" book; so maybe the Red Book and Breen agree on 100.

keets

from three different sources......................

Walter Breen's Encyclpedia of United States and Colonial Proof Coins, 1722-1977-----April 1977, pages 194-195.
1892---no record of Proof mintage, no reliable guess available.
1893---no reliable basis for guessing at mintage.

Walter Breen's Complete Encyclpedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins-----June 1988, page 582.
1892---103 Proofs.
1893---1 Proof, others reported but unverified.

The Encyclopedia of United States Silver & Gold Commemorative Coins, 1892-1989-----originally by Anthony Swiatek and Walter Breen, revised and corrected by Bowers and Merena Galleries in 1990
beginning on page 59 there is lengthy discussion of the mintage and subsequent delivery of the all important and historic first strikings. the author/writer at this point is Anthony Swiatek and he goes to great lengths stressing that what makes a proof a proof is the method of manufacture and that there are many business strikes which appear to be proofs---prooflike for the sake of arguement---yet they are nothing more than that. in the end, the established number seems to be 104 dated 1892----the first striking which was rejected, nos. 1-100 and also nos. 400, 1492 and 1892----and one piece dated 1893, the first coin struck with that date.

what makes it difficult to ascertain a conclusive number is the shoddy record keeping of U.S. Mint/exposition officials. the evidence supplied by Swiatek, much to the dismay of Breen haters, tends to support these numbers and came from historical documents as shown in the last reference. certainly in the intervening years more evidence to the contrary may have come to light, so i'd be curious to see what the "RedBook" states as their sources.

as i have stated in the past, Mr. Swiatek is the man this coin should be sent to. he is the formost authority on Commemoratives and it seems logical that his opinion is legitimate and should be warranted by anyone wanting to document what may be atrue rarity. my opinion, as if it matters, is that the subject coin is nothing more than a PL early striking.

al h.

edit---for spelling. Miss Trepepi would be dissappointed in me!!

kranky

Following up on keets' post, Swiatek's 1993 book on commems reports 103 proofs from 1892, and none for 1893. He said he examined the "alleged" proof 1893 at the Chicago Historical Society, and it "simply does not possess total proof characteristics. I currently believe that no 1893 proofs were produced. Even those few encapsulated pieces, I feel, are amazing early deep mirror prooflike strikings."

coinguy89

Someones got Civil War tokens in their sig.