Why do people bid on lots like this?????

Smittys

Link
Makes me wonder how this guy lives with himself.

Hedger

Judging by the sukers bidding on this crap, I'd sure bet he lives quite comfortably with himself. Scroll down and you'll see a picture of this guy. Almost looks guilty to me. I'm sure he sleeps very well at night in the plushest most comfortable bed money can buy.

alergar

Smoe people call them bidiots !!!

SilverDollarMan

Get this on down, its guarenteed 2 b worth $100,000.00, certified! hehe

wjd283

This guy has been the subject of ridicule numerous times on this forum,and deservedly so,I might add.
Notice that the vast majority is not NGC or PCGS.Mostly overgraded ICG crap.

Sunnywood

Wow, that is an unbelievable scam. Did you read the "Rules" ? Copied here for your viewing outrage:

Rules for bidding on this lot:

1) We will not reveal any more information than we already have in the description below, because this is a mystery lot (non-raffle, non-surprise).
2) Please do not call us and try to get us to reveal what's in this lot.
3) These lots are put together by the owner/president of the company.
4) All represented values come from the Collectors Universe Price Guide, and were gathered in November of 2004. The value represented is the average dealer asking prices for properly graded US coins. These prices can and do change. If you are the winning bidder, you may verify the value of your coins on the Collectors Universe Price Guide online.
5) If the grade of any coin in your mystery lot (non-raffle, non-surprise) is higher than the highest grade listed on the Collectors Universe Price Guide, we use the next grade down for pricing (which is usually one grade lower).
6) All coins are sent registered insured mail. FedEx is available to full time business addresses if you call us to set it up.
7) No returns, because this is a mystery lot (non-raffle, non-surprise).

Sunnywood

"mostly overgraded ICG crap" ... yeah, but it's ICG, not ACG or NTC ... but tell me this, even if it were ACCURATELY graded, do you really believe that the 70 coins included have a CU value of $100,000 ?? I would find that impossible to believe.

ACG and NTC routinely overgrade by 10 points, ICG is not THAT bad.

Regardless, can you imagine the nerve of anyone to put this up? And can you imagine anyone stupid enough to bid on it? I bet the bids are all phony sill bids.

wjd283

<< <i>7) No returns, because this is a mystery lot >>





Should read:

7)No returns because this is a complete rip-off.

lava

The auction seems to put a lot of weight on the "certificate of retail value," and only the front is posted for viewing, although the front suggests that the "fine print" is on the reverse. Value means what they say is means, but they are keeping that from us -- at least in their listing. I've sent them an email; we'll see what response I get.

ccex

The lot linked above appears to be 70 slabbed coins which will sell, now that the reserve of $3999 has been met, so the seller is happy. Six of the coins are in PCGS slabs, 4 in NGC, with the remainder ICG.

Since the PCGS price guide values for these coins (if they were all in PCGS slabs) is $100,000, or over $1428 per coin, why is the seller happy to sell them for $4000 ($57 per coin). Is this a problem with ICG grading, the seller, the PCGS price guide, the bidiots, or all of the above?

ms70

It's been discussed here many times about how the PCGS Price Guide is a bit off in many cases & needs to be updated. Maybe he's
exploiting that?

ziggy29

<< <i>"mostly overgraded ICG crap" ... yeah, but it's ICG, not ACG or NTC ... but tell me this, even if it were ACCURATELY graded, do you really believe that the 70 coins included have a CU value of $100,000 ?? I would find that impossible to believe.

ACG and NTC routinely overgrade by 10 points, ICG is not THAT bad. >>

Well, in terms of circulated and most lower mint state coins, IGC is (IMO) every bit as good as NGC and PCGS. But I (and a lot of other folks) think ICG overgrades very high-grade moderns by a couple of points fairly often relative to PCGS and, to a lesser degree, NGC.

So there may be a lot of modern ICG 68s in there which would be PCGS 66s, where the PCGS guide shows $1,000 in 68 and $50 in 66.

eyoung429

Um.... as simple as this may sound,

7) No returns, because this is a mystery lot (non-raffle, non-surprise).

How would they call it a non-return if they already have the values of the coins designated in the auction? If they know what the coins are, have the cert numbers, why would they not have a return policy unless it is a bunch of modern (1965 and up) coins?

Sounds too hokey to even bother to try.

Gerry

I wonder if the bids, which are identified only as private, are actually shill bids. It would be consistent with the rest of his performance.

kranky

From the auction:


<< <i>We guarantee that you will receive coins worth at least the value noted in the title of this auction according to the Collectors Universe Price Guide. >>



Now I think that is a statement a potential buyer could benefit from. If I was the winner, and took the coins to a number of dealers, it's very likely I would not be offered $100,000, or even 20% of that amount. So... would I have actually received coins worth $100,000? That's what his guarantee seems to state.

Tonelover

You'd think that if they sold $100,000 worth of coins for $3,999 they wouldn't mind if the buyer returned them.

dorkkarl

dudes, your talking about blue-moron-coins. the guy's a total whack-job nutcase.

why doesn't someone like k6az go after real scam artists like this???

K S

Coinhusker1

I'm trying to figure out how he gets the "retail values" to add up to $100,000 with only $4,000 fair value of coins. It must be with the 60 ICG slabs, but I don't see how you get there if you use the PCGS values. Yes, the PCGS values are high, but not high by that much!!

ziggy29

<< <i>I'm trying to figure out how he gets the "retail values" to add up to $100,000 with only $4,000 fair value of coins. It must be with the 60 ICG slabs, but I don't see how you get there if you use the PCGS values. Yes, the PCGS values are high, but not high by that much!! >>

I can only go back to my comments above. Given how much ICG overgrades very high-grade moderns, it's easy for me to believe that (for example) an ICG 68 might be a PCGS 65 or 66. And the PCGS value based on the ICG grade would be orders of magnitude greater than the coin would be worth based on how PCGS would grade it.

Russ

My hunch is that the ICG coins are predominantly "PR70DCAM" moderns. That's about the only way he could arrive at the ridiculous price guide value of $100,000. Since these are really only worth $15 to $20 a crack, this is a royal screw job.

Russ, NCNE

Snoodle

I have stumbled across this guy's mystery lot auctions a time or two and have wondered just how he could assemble such a lot without being fraudulent. His store is only a 20 minute drive from my house. I've stopped by there twice but no one was in at the time. He does not have much of a "brick and morter" type of a business.

I don't know if I will have the time tonight, but if I do...........

I'm going to try and create my own mystery lot using the criteria that he has posted and see how little it would cost me to do so.

Anyone else want to try?

Proofquarter

I just received a coin that was just bought on e-bay. 1964 kennedy PR69 DCAM ICG
Bought for $72.50. PCGS price guide $3200. Good example of his using PCGS to value ICG.

wayneherndon

I think Russ is correct. Take Modern Lincolns for example. PCGS Price Guide has PR 70 DCAMs at the following example prices:

1995-S $3000
1997-S $2500
1998-S $2500

It would only take 30-40 to get to $100k at this rate. PCGS price guide for 68 DCAMs of the same dates range from $8 to $14. If ICG over graded by two points, then a lot of this type could be worth as little as $600 or so. Even 69 DCAMs are only listed at $30 to $35 making a lot of this type worth only about half the reserve bid amount.

He doesn't say the dollars are Morgans but trusts a few bidders will assume so. My guess is they are Ikes, Susies or Sacs and although I didn't look, the PCGS price guide probably has similar numbers for the Lincolns.

WH

wayneherndon

Might also point out that the Lincolns used in my example are actually readily available for half the PCGS price guide. So, that would make the value of the lot about 1/4 the minimum bid if the lot were made up of similar coins used in my example. Essentially, this deal is made to sound good based on a "perfect storm" of three factors:

--PCGS price guide sometimes is higher than true market value (even for PCGS coins)
--ICG grades a little looser than PCGS (especially on high grade moderns)
--Even accurately graded coins in an ICG holder don't fare as well as PCGS coins due to a more limited appeal (e.g., can't fit in a registry set).

To me, the fact that there are such auctions is testiment to the fact that such lots can be built profitably. The fact that there is no return means the winning bidder will probably be disappointed. Notice that of the recent neutral and negative feedback this seller has received, most of it is on private auctions. Clearly, they know which lots will likely cause them grief and don't won't bidders being warned or contacted by subsequent bidders considering similar lots and inquiring about the contents of previously sold lots.

WH