MS70, Acetone, etc..What are the +/-'s dipping in these solutions?

Manorcourtman

For the newbie's and oldbie's.....what is your experience dipping coins?? Silver/Copper/Gold....which works well, which doesn't work at all? Which restores luster, which is worthless? My experience is that Acetone is pretty much worthless. Anyone else??

magikbilly

I have no practical experience because I don't believe in dipping a coin unless there is a very good reason - some condition that needs to addressed - true conservative conservation if you will. Some say for every coin "helped" by a dip a lot have been permanently ruined. With those odds why bother? I may "own" the coin, but I am really just a caretaker.

Billy

PS - I would not even consider dipping a copper coin.

Manorcourtman

ldhair

I don't see acetone as a dip. It works well to remove organic matter. PVC, ect.

ormandh

I have used acetone on pvc damaged coins. It seems to work a little, but there is still some pvc residue on the coin. -Dan

ldhair

<< <i>I have used acetone on pvc damaged coins. It seems to work a little, but there is still some pvc residue on the coin. -Dan >>


Could it be possible what you are seeing is the damage the PVC did and not PVC residue?

ormandh

It possibly could be, but I have not been shown properly what pvc damage does to the surface. I have two Kennedy's that have pvc damage done to them. -Dan

darktone

Acetone will disolve oil based stuff such as PVC and not touch the toning. MS70 is a mixture that is supposed to give a luster- like oiling a coin. Dip- jewel luster or whatever you want to call it works by removing layers of metal. mike

ldhair

<< <i>Acetone will disolve oil based stuff such as PVC and not touch the toning. MS70 is a mixture that is supposed to give a luster- like oiling a coin. Dip- jewel luster or whatever you want to call it works by removing layers of metal. mike >>


Well said

Conder101

<< <i>Which restores luster >>


Nothing restores luster. Once Luster is gone it is gone forever. That is because luster is cause by a property of the surface structure of the metal after striking. Wear, excessive toning, or improper cleaning alters that surface structure and all it takes is a microscopic change to destroy the luster. In order to restore the luster you would have to restore the surface structure on that microscopic scale.



<< <i>My experience is that Acetone is pretty much worthless. >>


Depends on what you are trying to get it to do. Acetone is basicly a degreasing agent which will dissolve away organic compounds. It will remove some but not all water soluable contaminants. It will not change the color or toning (Sometimes it will remove artificial toning). So it won't get rid of tarnish or make the coins "shiny". But it is a good decontaminator.

JadeRareCoin

Conservators, in my experience, use acetone, zylene and/or MS-70 to remove contaminants from coins. Acetone and zylene (zylol) seem to be best suited for copper, whereas MS-70 works well on silver, nickel and gold. I think that MS-70 is very similar to Acetone in that it removes contaminants without removing metal. On copper, one can add Blue Ribbon or Care to the coin after the contaminants are removed. Blue Ribbon and Care are simply oil based products that add a thin layer of protection to the surface of the coin.

Jewel Luster (and any other types of acid dip) are terrible for coins. They are most often used by people trying to enhance the look of a coin with profit being the sole motive. Once a coin is dipped, then it is forever changed in a negative way.

I have to keep a Zylol, Acetone and MS-70 in stock at all times because 90% of coin dealers are too stupid or lazy to not use PVC flips. Just because they can't see the PVC haze on a coin, they think that it is okay. Lately, I am so sick and tired of dealing with stupid dealers that I take each coin that I buy out of a flip and make them smell the coin, then touch it. Kind of like rubbing a dog's nose in his poop. Do they stop using PVC flips? Nope. I recently bought a large group of nice early copper from one of America's top early copper dealers. All of his coins were in PVC flips. Copper is the worst thing that you can expose to PVC since it is such a reactive metal. You would think that this guy would know better. I could go on and on about this problem, but I don't want to highjack this thread.

MadMonk

Acetone is good, but I found that using a 3 stage dip works best.
Using 3 vessels, place coin in vessel 1 for a while, then 2, then finally 3.

raycyca

DO NOT use MS 70 on proof coins. It causes some staining and some hairling on the coin. It works very well on silver and clad coin in MS condition. I have used it diluted to about a 50% solution with destilled water. You place it on the coin for no longer than 5 seconds at a time. Then rinse WELL with a flush of destilled water. Dip or use a cotton tipped swab. Do this again if needed. Then you can use PURE acetone (available at Walmart in the cosmetic isle) to get the water and residu off. Pat dry with a soft lint free cloth. I have done this with very good results. Try this with some cheap old circulated coins first to make sure you get it right. I have destroyed a few proof coins with this at first. I ONLY do this to coins that I want for my personal set. I have never sold a single coin that I have dipped before. As a matter of fact, I have rarely sold ANY coins. I have only sold a SINGLE Kennedy from my MS set to a very good friend to give him a start. All others have been spare proof sets or some coins I bought duplicates of and kept the best. "Dipping" is VERY common practice and many if not most people will deny they do it, and might hesitate to buy a coin if they knew it was dipped. Look at the Morgan silver dollars or bust halves. I would venture to guess that over 70% of each are dipped at some point in time. That's why the bust half collectors/collections are raw. I sold mine years ago and still regret it. The only slabbed Morgans I have are Binion rainbow toned specimens that came right from the bags, to NGC, then to Teletrade a couple years ago. Their look is very different than most on the market. Hope this helps. Ray

BigGreek

I recently bought a late date Walker in a PVC flip. The coin had so much
residue it looked white and hazy with very little luster. It had that pale
overdipped look and the seller probably thought the coin was a loser
because I got it for next to nothing.

One application of acetone (using a ball of cotton) and the coin looks
ready for PCGS to put into a MS64 or better holder.

BTW, for those who use these chemicals on a regular basis. Be warned
that they are very caustic and proven carcinogens. Please take
precautions such as using a well ventilated work area and keeping
the stuff from touching your skin.

JadeRareCoin

BTW, for those who use these chemicals on a regular basis. Be warned

I use latex gloves. So you see, not only are people who use PVC flips ruining coins, they are possibly causing cancer for those of us who have to curate their damaged goods.

SilverDollarMan

<< <i>I have no practical experience because I don't believe in dipping a coin unless there is a very good reason - some condition that needs to addressed - true conservative conservation if you will. Some say for every coin "helped" by a dip a lot have been permanently ruined. With those odds why bother? I may "own" the coin, but I am really just a caretaker.

Billy

PS - I would not even consider dipping a copper coin. >>



This should b a imfamous quote:
I may "own" the coin, but I am really just a caretaker.

I like that!
Thx alot, u just "Woke up a collector".

ldhair

<< <i>PURE acetone (available at Walmart in the cosmetic isle) >>


Are you sure this is pure?

Askari

Acetone purchased in the cosmetics section is not necessarily pure. You're better off going to hardware or paint supply store.

SilverDollarMan

Could anyone tell me what the second and third steps of the 3 part dip are? Thx

morgannut2

I dip all my Morgans in pure acetone before submission to remove any PVC that hasn't show up yet. Luster can never be restored, it's just easier to see by the inexperienced eye after a silver coin is dipped in Jewelluster etc. Non expert dippers of silver coins will commonly see develope a brownish toning around the edges and recesses on their bright silver material in a year or so. Auctioneers call it "russet" toning, but often it's just from left over dip residue.

ldhair

<< <i>Acetone is good, but I found that using a 3 stage dip works best.
Using 3 vessels, place coin in vessel 1 for a while, then 2, then finally 3. >>


The idea is that each stage is fresh acetone.

SilverDollarMan

Thx. That brings up 3more Q's. How long in each dip?and how long and under what circumstances in rinse? ie warm or cold water? Thx again!

badger

Remember that acetone is highly flammable. Work in a ventilated place. No smoking. No heat sources.

Conder101

Swishing it for a few seconds in each stage of the acetone dipping should do it. As for the rinse, after I take it out of the last dipping bath I POUR some fresh acetone over it so the flow carries away any last traces of cantaminated acetone from the final bath. The acetone will then evaporate off by itself in just a few seconds.

SilverDollarMan

Thx Conder101 and Badger. That's what I needed.

Max2

Where does one find acetone?

dthigpen

Hardware/Paint store.

Manorcourtman

Any local hardware store, or Lowes, Home Depot....etc.

SilverDollarMan

I got 100% from Walmart and Meijer in cosmetics.

JadeRareCoin

Acetone works well if you use a cotton swab to gently remove debris that is loosened by the acetone. I then rinse with a rapid flow of water to remove the acetone and debris, then pat dry with a soft cloth. I am not so sure about having acetone as the last substance on a coin.

stev32k

I would suggest you try trisodium phosphate (TSP). It is a surfactant and will not remove any metal or toning. It will remove both organic and inorganic debris from the surface of the coin. It will "deep clean" even the smallest of surface imperfections and restore cartwheel luster. It does not leave an unnatural shine or polish. I've used it to remove haze from badly hazed proofs and they come out looking like they just came from the mint. The best part is it will not alter the surface of the coin in any way - except to remove dirt, grime, fingerprints, etc.

Acetone will remove most organic based material and some of the inorganic, but will not remove all of either one. TSP will - it's like tide soap on steroids.

Manorcourtman

TSP? Where do the sell it or what is it contained in?? Thanks for everyones input on this thread.....M

stev32k

TSP can be bought at most any paint store or the paint dept. at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. It is used for cleaning before painting. Use 1 tablespoon in about 8 oz of hot tap water and soak for about 10 or 20 minutes. You may have to soak for longer depending on how bad the coin is. Heating to 125 - 135 degrees will help (hot enough to just hold your finger in the water without burning).

ldhair

Trisodium Phosphate CAS # [7601-54-9]

Synonyms: Sodium phosphate, tribasic; Sodium orthophosphate; Sodium phosphate; Trisodium orthophosphate; Phosphoric acid, trisodium salt; Sodium phosphate
Na3O4P
163.941

magikbilly

<< <i><<"deep clean" even the smallest of surface imperfections and restore cartwheel luster.>>
<<it will not alter the surface of the coin in any way>>
<<TSP- it's like tide soap on steroids.>> >>



This stuff makes me nervous! Once I hear "restoration of luster": I get nervous... and heat and tapwater - not even distilled? NO THANKS!


Billy

stev32k

Distilled water would be better of course. You might try it out on a coin that you don't mind screwing up - that will will provide a little more confidence.

P.S. Here's an idea. Use some pocket change and try the TSP. Then report back to us on what your observations are.

magikbilly

But this stuff is a heavy duty latex cleaner and cement cleaner designed with very different intentions in mind.

I don't think this is good for coins. It is a Phosphoric acid salt / inorganic phosphate salt / inorganic sodium compound / sodium salt / trisodium salt mix. It is a very strong base - known to be corrosive to several metals, especially when wet or with heat as you suggested. I wonder what negative reactions occur/can occur between this material and the oxides/tarnish on coins?

Best,
Billy

ldhair

The long term effect on the surface of a coin is what worries me

stev32k

So try it out - Does it work or not? Actually it is a weak base, it is not phosphoric acid, and it does not attack metals. In fact it is also used as a protective metal coating after acid cleaning of steel. It is widely used in the power indusrty for cleaning supercritical boiler piping, and high pressure turbine lube oil systems. But if you don't think it will work for cleaning coins -- maybe you are right. But until you have tried it you have no idea what you are talking about.

magikbilly

<< <i>So try it out - Does it work or not? Actually it is a weak base, it is not phosphoric acid, and it does not attack metals. In fact it is also used as a protective metal coating after acid cleaning of steel. It is widely used in the power indusrty for cleaning supercritical boiler piping, and high pressure turbine lube oil systems. But if you don't think it will work for cleaning coins -- maybe you are right. But until you have tried it you have no idea what you are talking about. >>



TSP:
Chemical Family: Phosphoric acid salt / inorganic phosphate salt / inorganic sodium compound / sodium salt / trisodium salt
A strong base is PH 10 and up (7 being "neutral") - PH Value of TPS: 11.5 (0.1% solution); 11.7 (0.5% solution); 11.9 (1% solution)
Corrosivity to metals is known and cited. Many online sources note this, and many suppliers give warnings about metal discoloration etc. Also, it leaves a film, as Idhair was concerned about.

"....a protective metal coating after acid cleaning of steel. It is widely used in the power indusrty for cleaning supercritical boiler piping, and high pressure turbine lube oil systems.." Perhaps it is best left where intended. And no, I won't have any further ideas about this product as a coin dip as I already have seen enough data suggesting it is not such a good idea. And how does it "restore cartwheel luster" as you say?

Best,
Billy

ldhair

<< <i>But until you have tried it you have no idea what you are talking about >>


Very true.
What effect will it have long term is the question.
Please tell us your experience with it.

magikbilly

Hi,

yes - exactly. What is your experience with it? What are you using it for?

Billy

stev32k

My experience with it is just what I said before it cleans off the surface dirt, grease, grime, fingerprints, PVC residue, and other "stuff" from the surface of coins. I'm just passing along my experience. It makes no difference to me if you want to try it or not.

ldhair

<< <i>My experience with it is just what I said before it cleans off the surface dirt, grease, grime, fingerprints, PVC residue, and other "stuff" from the surface of coins. I'm just passing along my experience. It makes no difference to me if you want to try it or not. >>


Hi stev32k
Not picking on you here.
The long term effects are what matter. There are lots of ways to clean coins.
Some are ok and some are just not safe.

I ask your experience long term because if the surface of the coin is not left stable, it will be a problem in the future. I would think the coin's surface would need to be neutralized after this type of cleaning to be stable?

I just don't wish to see folks run to the store to buy a product without knowing the long term effects.
There is no need to take the risk of using a product such as this on coins.

Millertime

<<I dip all my Morgans in pure acetone before submission to remove any PVC that hasn't show up yet. Luster can never be restored, it's just easier to see by the inexperienced eye after a silver coin is dipped in Jewelluster etc. Non expert dippers of silver coins will commonly see develope a brownish toning around the edges and recesses on their bright silver material in a year or so. Auctioneers call it "russet" toning, but often it's just from left over dip residue. >>

I just bought a '96 Silver Eagle that has a brownish stain (looks kind of like a water stain) on the top of the obverse and on quite a bit of the reverse. If this is the dip residue how do I go about removing it?

Thanks,
Millertime