GAI/PSA experience Sun times show @ chicago
JERO
Posts: 68 ✭
Just a little FYI. Went to the Sun Times show sat morning and it was pretty decent. The first shocker was Roger Clemens was scheduled to sign from 1-3pm, and it changed to 11a-1pm. I imagine a bunch of people got screwed paying $199-299 bucks for an autograph (yes, thats right). Bob Gibson was there, he was cool, as was Ernie Banks and a bunch of others. Mastro had only a few cards from the auction there, Legacy, 707, WVshoebox, etc... were all there. I found a few 38 Goudeys for my set (707 does discount if you go about it the right way), and sent some more raw buys to PSA (there were probably 15 total PSA 38 goudeys at the whole show, and maybe another 10 total ungraded. Over half had high asking prices well over SMR). I went to check out GAI, since like it or not, they are greatly improving in sales prices as well as high end auction cards if you haven't noticed lately. I talked to them for a few minutes (very nice and not rushed) and noticed their space was a bit disorganized (or don't have a curtain to hide the mess like PSA does?), but they had plenty of staff there as well as handouts etc... I tried out their "preview grade" service. Dropped off a 52 topps sain/page bio error card and gave them $5 to pre-grade it. Came back in 40 minutes and It got a "3" Exactly what I predicted. So I gave them another $15 to encase it. I told them I would just have to have it mailed to me because I wasn't going to be able to pick it up on the next day, the lady I was talking to was very nice and said "maybe we can get it done today for you then". I said I appreciate the gesture but i'm going to be leaving in an hour and I understand i'll just have to pay for shipping, and that is OK. She talked to one of the guys encasing the cards, then came back to me and said they would have it ready within an hour. Very impressed I came back in 50 minutes and the card was done. Not bad I thought... (PSA charges what $50 for the same turnaround?) Then she gave me a flyer explaining how they are starting their own registry including PSA, SGC, and GAI cards in one master registry, and that they were grading all commons from ANY issue for 4.50 per card, and if you sent in over 20 cards return shipping was FREE. WOW. So I then went over to PSA to send in my second set of submissions. They informed me every different service had seperate return fees, so for my 10 cards, it was going to be 3 seperate return shipping charges totalling almost $35. (one PSA DNA, 8 vintage and 1 post -1972 card) So I scrapped the advertised $5 special on post 72 cards since it was going to now cost over $16, and filled out the 2 seperate forms for my other submissions. I come back with the forms filled out and there is literally 2-3 people deep at every chair waiting with 3 people sitting at the table with stacks of HUNDREDS of cards hoging the table space filling out their forms, changing soft sleeves etc... You would think these people could see that they were in the way, and move out of the way and return with the forms filled out, but noooo. Anyway, sent in my 9 cards to PSA total submission cost was almost $140 ($12 x 8, $20 x 1, plus shipping x2). Needless to say, i'm not quite ready to jump on the GAI bandwagon just yet, but man was my experince with them eye opening... Any thoughts? Everyone seems to really dog GAI, but how can you argue against their auction prices lately as well as submission prices? Does anyone have some scans of these "horrible" encased GAI cards? I've seen a bunch of crazy PSA's on the boards, how about the GAI examples? Simply trying to weigh out the facts and myths to make my own opinion. I could use some 100% factual feedback from you guys.
Thanks again and I look forward to your replies,
JERO
Thanks again and I look forward to your replies,
JERO
0
Comments
One would think a merger could eventually become a possibility in this industry, by either PSA or SGC, with GAI being the purchased company, but the way I see it, they have nothing on the table to offer other than simply eliminating competition. Looking out several years into the future, I believe sports card grading will be done primarily by two companies: PSA and SGC.
<< <i>I went to check out GAI, since like it or not, they are greatly improving in sales prices as well as high end auction cards if you haven't noticed lately >>
Jero
I don't think, even tho this is a PSA board, that people will disparage GAI without reason. At this point, the biggest reported complaints have to do with over-grading with the appearance of being "dealer friendly" for that reason. Moreover, as you alluded, people are not satisfied with their customer service and have reported nightmares with their pack grading service. Also, BKAH reported how he never could get them to properly handle his club membership and he finally asked for his money back. These things go to the credibility of the company and the desire for someone to send them valuable cards that could be mishandled or lost e.g. On the plus side for me...I like Mike Baker and think the company has something to offer in the balance of competition which is good for the grading industry IMO.
your friend
Mike
Human beings will always make mistakes.
I just feel that PSA is "too big" for any other company to
come in and make a dent.
Look at the Marshall Fogel's collection, etc. and where their money is.
If your question is dealing with future prices, I think PSA
will be very hard to beat. Even though GAI can do a bang up
job with grading and customer service, the market is heavily
weighted towards PSA.
....but ultimately, I just don't think they have long-term viability compared to PSA, who can fall back on PCCG or PSA/DNA or PSE if times get tough in the sports card market, as well as SGC, who also does coins and comic books. A small, private company in this business probably could not handle much more than 12-18 months of extremely slow volume. Plus, they have become a price driven company, trying to undercut their competition in that area, but I don't see how anyone could consistently do that and be profitable unless the margins to begin with were outrageous, and I don't think they are.....
I think this one of the most logical "arguements" on behalf of submitting to PSA that I have ever heard....I'm pretty sure that point has been made before, but this is the first time I've actually thought about it.
Nice job A!!!
Dal
Thanks for the replies, but I think PSA will continue to be king although they will lower prices, or maybe allow a cheaper shipping option atleast? GAI will continue to grow, there were a few dealers at the show that had hundreds of GAI high quality cards, and 707 is about the only dealer that doesn't have any.
JERO
when you buy PSA graded cards on Ebay,
rather than sending in Raw cards to PSA yourself.
<< <i>Then she gave me a flyer explaining how they are starting their own registry including PSA, SGC, and GAI cards in one master registry, and that they were grading all commons from ANY issue for 4.50 per card, and if you sent in over 20 cards return shipping was FREE. >>
I didn't get a flyer. Do you know how long GAI is having this deal?
JERO
<< <i>Both GAI and PSA have "horror stories" in their past.
Human beings will always make mistakes.
I just feel that PSA is "too big" for any other company to
come in and make a dent.
Look at the Marshall Fogel's collection, etc. and where their money is.
If your question is dealing with future prices, I think PSA
will be very hard to beat. Even though GAI can do a bang up
job with grading and customer service, the market is heavily
weighted towards PSA. >>
I think you will find that Marshall Fogel, Charlie Merkel and Don Loucios all have cards graded by both PSA and GAI. I know Mr. Fogel has had at least one complete set graded by GAI.
I think it says a lot for a newer smaller company to have three of the biggest collectors in the hobby using there service.
H. Walker
You might be right, but the hobby as a whole has not accepted GAI. GAI cards sell for a fraction of what PSA and Beckett cards sell for. I think that has to do with GAI's more lenient grading standards and poor customer service.
For now, I think I am going to go with the vast majority of collectors and avoid GAI.
z2345
<< <i>Chew
You might be right, but the hobby as a whole has not accepted GAI. GAI cards sell for a fraction of what PSA and Beckett cards sell for. I think that has to do with GAI's more lenient grading standards and poor customer service.
For now, I think I am going to go with the vast majority of collectors and avoid GAI.
z2345 >>
I guess you have not been checking the vintage auctions. GAI vintage star cards are bringing great prices as are PSA. Check Mile High', Goodwin and Company, Memory Lane and
Mastro. The first three companies auctions all ended in the last month.
Walk the shows, you see an equal amount of GAI vintage cards in dealers showcases.
Granted PSA is grading 98% of the vintage commons.
I do not know anyone that will touch a vintage card graded by Beckett.
I have no idea about modern issues. I choose to invest my money in the vintage market.
Thanks H. Walker
<< <i>Just a little FYI.
she gave me a flyer explaining how they are starting their own registry including PSA, SGC, and GAI cards in one master registry >>
they have been talking about this
for about 2 years now... HA HA HA
anyone want to guess when it
will ever see the light of day?
<< <i>know Mr. Fogel has had at least one complete set graded by GAI. >>
I recollect that someone said that GAI had a really nice 1957 set on display at a show that belonged to Mr. Fogel. And although there is now a lot of GAI material out there and I have purchased a few graded cards, I still think there is a perception that they overgrade and thus, are very dealer friendly.
your friend
Mike
<< <i>anyone want to guess when it
will ever see the light of day? >>
i heard it will be up Monday..
<< <i>GAI definitely overgrades
You know I always get a laugh when I read a quote like this.
The grader that set the standards and taught every grader at PSA how to grade is at GAI.
I see very little difference in PSA and GAI grading.
I believe that both companies make mistakes and over grade and under grade cards.
Did PSA change there grading standards? If so when. From what I see on their published standards they are the same as they were 6 years ago.
Thanks H. Walker
<< <i>
I believe that both companies make mistakes and over grade and under grade cards.
>>
absolutely..
<< <i>The grader that set the standards and taught every grader at PSA how to grade is at GAI. >>
I always get a kick out of people who think they know the whole story.
Although I have been out of the loop for awhile and don't know all the graders at PSA currently, I can assure you the person who taught/coached the top graders and also set the grading standard at PSA is NOT at GAI.
Adam
<< <i> I've seen a bunch of crazy PSA's on the boards, how about the GAI examples? Simply trying to weigh out the facts and myths to make my own opinion. I could use some 100% factual feedback from you guys. >>
<< <i>how about the GAI examples? >>
Damn Nathan what did you use to scan that Bell card...the Hubble telescope?
Here's a GAI 8 - what do ya think?
your friend
Mike
Thanks again for the scans and replies,
JERO
<< <i>Damn Nathan what did you use to scan that Bell card...the Hubble telescope? >>
<< <i>I just noticed also how GAI has the card info on the top edge of the case, which minimizes thumbing through each holder to find your card. Which minimizes case damage as well. Another nice touch... >>
Yeah, I was going to mention that earlier but forgot. It is nice and if you keep your graded cards in MJ Roop boxes it's even nicer.
edited due to spelling.
<< <i>
<< <i>The grader that set the standards and taught every grader at PSA how to grade is at GAI. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>The grader that set the standards and taught every grader at PSA how to grade is at GAI. >>
I always get a kick out of people who think they know the whole story.
Although I have been out of the loop for awhile and don't know all the graders at PSA currently, I can assure you the person who taught/coached the top graders and also set the grading standard at PSA is NOT at GAI.
Adam >>
Adam din't you and Mike set the standards? Or did you do it by yourself?
H. Walker
<< <i>Adam din't you and Mike set the standards? Or did you do it by yourself? >>
The grading standards were set long before Mike became a grader at PSA. The standards were written by a prominent dealer at the time and before PSA ever opened for business at the Anahiem National 1991.
After the standards were written I sat in a room with the dealer who wrote the standard along with several other prominent dealers in the industry. We were all handed the standards to read and then several hundred cards were passed around the room. We had to grade them independently based on our interpretation of the standard and write our grade on a piece of paper.
Once we were finished we went back through each card and discussed what each person graded the card and why. Then the standards were changed slightly based on our collective opinions.
At the time PSA was being formed Steve Rocchi was president of PCGS and Mike was a coin sealer. They both liked the idea of a third party grading service for cards and decided to become card dealers. I was at a local Orange County show when I met Mike at his table and had a long coversation with him about PSA and the grading line. He was quite astute with his interpretation of the grading standards so I suggested to David Hall that he test Mike to become a grader.
Obviously, Mike passed the test and became a grader at PSA and we continued perfecting the standards to find a happy medium between dealer opinion and collector opinion. We worked as a team, I was the consistent card nerd and Mike could sell ice to an eskimo so he sold the idea of third party grading to collectors and dealers and the rest is history.
I could write a book but that's the gist of it.
Adam
Did BGS ever influence PSA's grading standards for modern cards? Did the folks at PSA ever feel like they had to "toughen up" their standards in certain areas (such as surface or centering) because BGS was grading differently? For a while, many collectors believed that BGS was more strict with respect to condition for modern cards (alterations were a different matter), and many collectors also still believe that earlier cards graded by PSA were graded more leniently compared to today's standards.
<< <i>Mike could sell ice to an eskimo so he sold the idea of third party grading to collectors and dealers >>
Adam
If that is the same Mike I met at the National in 1992, then I agree. He was very nice and very convincing - I started buying PSA cards that year and ever since!
your friend
Mike
Thanks for providing some info on the birth of TPG. I personally never knew this info before I just read it here. Great reading !
Those must have been great times.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>Did BGS ever influence PSA's grading standards for modern cards? Did the folks at PSA ever feel like they had to "toughen up" their standards in certain areas (such as surface or centering) because BGS was grading differently? >>
No, actually we were worried about the fact that Beckett had a name in the industry and was well known amongst collectors so by default collectors would assume they had the talent to grade cards too. Although the "perception" was they were tougher IMHO there was no logic behind it. All it did was create artificial inflation on cards that you could find in the same grade/condition in a PSA holder. In fact it was common practice for dealers to submit PSA 9's & 10's for crossover to BGS just for the perceived value BGS had in the industry.
<< <i>(alterations were a different matter) >>
You can't take this situation out of the equation. When the graders at BGS are getting modern cards "freshly cut" what wear and tear is there left to grade? Centering & surface.
<< <i>collectors also still believe that earlier cards graded by PSA were graded more leniently compared to today's standards. >>
I would tend to agree. In the begining I was employed part time by PSA and there were other people handling a majority of the grading. Eventually, I climbed the latter in the grading room and that's when I suggested they test Mike for grading also. I could consistanly grade cards but I'm not a salesman and I felt PSA needed someone to sell the idea to the public and also had the ability to interpret the grading standard.
I left PSA in 1999 so for today's standards, I have no comment.
Adam
<< <i>If that is the same Mike I met at the National in 1992, then I agree. >>
Yes, that would be the same Mike.
Adam
<< <i>Those must have been great times. >>
They were both good and bad. Unfortunately, early on we were the bearer of bad news on a lot of peoples collections. Trimming and restoration was so rampant in the industry that several high dollar collections we graded were worthless. It's pretty hard telling the collector on the phone "I'm sorry but 70% of your $100,000 collection is restored/trimmed."
Adam