1977 Topps Question

Love of the Game

Hi all:

This is really a question for DGF (I tried to PM, but it wouldn't work; still I newbie, I guess), but anyone who'd care to answer would have a welcome opinion.

I bought a 1977 vending box last week, just for the hell of it. 1977 is the year I began collecting; I still have most of those mangled old cards, and I love them dearly, but thought if I had an opportunity to pick up a large lot of fresh cards, I would. In my eyes, the ones I pulled from packs in 1977 are worth more to me than anything I could buy today, but it's such a beautiful set that I feel like I owe it to myself to have a nicer set than the one I have now, which might grade a 2 on average, if I'm lucky.

So now that it's in the mail, I'm curious. What should I be expecting from this vending box, realistically, condition-wise? I mean, assuming that it hasn't been beaten to death over the past 25 years or so, and I'm able to pull crisp cards out of the box, how many of these cards should I expect to be truly high-grade? I ask primarily because I've never bought a vending box before, and I've heard that with some other issues (like 1980) it is more difficult to pull a 10 out of a vending box than one would think. Should I expect mostly 9s? 8s? 7s?

Thanks in advance,

-Al

AndySomnifac

I'd love to know the answer to this one. I'm in the market for a vending box as well for my set.

highend

vending can be tricky, one drop could ding the corners on almost every card. you can also expect a fair share of OC & PD.
on the upside you could always pull a bunch of mint cards. it's a gamble...GOOD LUCK!!

Love of the Game

The box came from a sealed vending case, so I figured I had a better shot of not getting a box that may have been dropped (dinging all the corners) over the years. I don't mind the OCs that much for my personal raw collection (I don't think I'd ever grade a whole set of 660 modern cards unless I was as devoted to it as DGF is to his '77 set, which I'm not) - however, I have gotten curious to know what I can expect (in general) in terms of higher-end cards. What's normal for a vending box from this set - all things being equal, and assuming no damage to the box itself, could I expect to pull a dozen 10s? Five? Fifty?

Just curious, and thanks for the feedback highend.

-Al

downgoesfrazier

Novocent,
As always, vending is a crap-shoot. Your SOURCE is the most important thing to gain some realistic expectations. Who is it? I actually know the quality of the cases that most major dealers broke who deal in such things. Generally, if I dont PULL the box from the middle of the case myself, I don't buy it...unless BBCExchange or someone of that integrity is selling it. To be more succinct, generally expect this type of breakdown:

8-12% Technically Mint or better with a pattern repeating enough to yield no more than 25-30 unique numbers on a given box--usually less.
20-25% NM or NM/MT with various copies presenting well while others are acceptable by technical standards only.
45-50% Sharp cards that are obviously off-centered, extraneous print, etc. that lands them in the EX+ range.
20-30% Cards with obvious production anomalies that make the card undesirable or humerous.

Again, these results are typical and not an exact science. I've pulled glossy, registered, crisp vending boxes and mushy, chippy, offensive ones. They vary. A good one is a brick of solid GOLD! A bad one is just a brick. Good luck with it and let me know what it's like. I can and would love to trade you graded 9's & 10's for raw cards that I desire to add to my set. I hope this helps you out and to read more pull up the thread I started on these cards last month.

GOOD LUCK!!!



dgf

Love of the Game

DGF:

Thanks for the input. I've actually read your threads on '77s pretty thoroughly; the amount of knowledge you possess about the set you love is inspiring. I hope someday that I have the same level of knowledge about my '53s (although my '53s will never be as nice as your '77s - I've seen your set on the registry). You are one of the most condition-sensitive (and condition-knowledgeable) collectors I've ever come into contact with, and to a degree, it was your analysis of the '77s that made me go out and buy some unopened modern material.

In either case, the vendor was Alan & Son Cards, bassmaster2 on Ebay. Never heard of them before, but feedback was strong on about 1000 sales, activity on the item was relatively high, and the price wasn't THAT ridiculous (although it was high), so I figured I'd give it a shot. I understand pretty well that part of getting into a new set involves getting burned once or twice by overpaying or buying suspect cards (I've taken a bath on a few '53 and '61 purchases over the past few months), but I'm really curious about this one, since its the first time I've bought something that I can't see AT ALL, not even the scan helps much.

What do you think?

I will surely let you know how it pans out when the box arrives, although I'm still not sure I'll be able to tell the difference between an 8 and a 10 with this set, and am thus likely to throw good money after bad on grading fees!

-Al

GATOR5

Ai,

I ditto the comments of phil. I have a vendor up on ebay at the moment that comes from a sealed case as well. I opened about a third of the case. I pulled some 10's many 9's and a majority of razor 8's. Of the 8 boxes I opened they ran pretty much all the same but one box of the 8 was downright nasty with a plaque of oc's but yet the cards that were centered were stars and low pops so it is a gamble at best.

Phil toss me an emai I need some help.

Matt

ajw

There is an amazingly long thread on the SGC boards that you might want to read. It is basicially one guy's diary of his mission of collecting a top grade 1977 set. I don't have the love for the set that others do, but I still found the thread to be really intersting reading. The thread is over two years long and still going...

1977 Thread

downgoesfrazier

Matt,
I was looking for you in Chicago last night. The King said you might be there. You missed a great bonding session over some real great Italian food. Not much on the floor, however. Frank and I lifted the lids on a couple of 5000 count boxes of 77-78's vendors (storage touches) and pulled a '78 John Hiller!!! How sad is that. Although I was able to upgrade my '83 Von Hayes to Gem Mint status! Whew!
I'll get in touch or see you today?

dgf

minibeers

There is nothing like the feeling I get when I lay my eyes upon a perfectly centered '77. It is like a little piece of artwork.

mmmmmmm........

cheers,
minibeers

estang

I've had only 1 experience with buying vintage vending --- 1980 Topps. Many cards were dinged and I was pissed. I'm guessing my box came from one of the corners of the case. I got a SGC 86 Rickey Henderson out of it, but basically wasted $100.

ctsoxfan

I have had some bad luck with 1977 vending - but I agree, the source of the box is key. If the box was mishandled in any way, the thin box cannot protect the cards very well, and that results in a lot of dinged and bent cards. The cards at the ends of the boxes are often the worst, while the ones packed in tightly in the center are many times the best ones. I keep trying vending boxes, but I don't have much faith in them anymore.

miami3

I remember putting together 77' Topps sets from vending, racks, and cello packs from 77' through the mid 80's when unopened product was cheap and plentiful.

77' was always a tough year to find in high end condition as it seems that the cardboard was very cheap and easily damaged and the centering was very poor, sometimes you would end up 20-24 of the same card from one case that was always badly off center.

I know that a lot of you guys like to work on your 77' sets, but I would stay away from this year if I had a choice.................................................................. and try something easier like 1971 Topps or 1962 Topps.

ctsoxfan

71 Topps is easier than 77 Topps? I am surprised to read that - even though I have much more experience with the 77 set, I know that the 71 set is incredibly tough with the black borders, and that 9's and above go for a premium consistently.

Love of the Game

I think he was kidding, since '71 Topps and '62 Topps are notoriously difficult due to chipping on the borders. I don't bother with either set. Once I bought a NM '71 Mays at a show, and chipped the border taking it out of the toploader when I got home.

'77s haven't arrived yet. Hoping they get here before I go away for Thanksgiving, or they're going to sit outside in the rain for three days and all this discussion about bricks vs. mushy boxes vs. centering is going to be moot.

-Al

ctsoxfan

Ah, sarcasm. Got it!

Love of the Game

Well, the box arrived on Wednesday afternoon, which left me with a few hours to break it open before going away for the holiday. All I've done thus far is break the box and pull the key cards.

My early observation is that the box looked good - a few dinged cards but not a tremendous amount. Overall, they were very sharp, with the centering issues that several people have advised me to expect. I was surprised at the poor collating, but it was a PLEASANT surprise, since the box yielded two Ryans, two Carltons, two McCoveys, two Yaz's, and two Reggies. Got a real nice copy of the Fisk (one of my favorite cards ever), but no copies of the Carew (another one). No Brett in the box, but all the other major stars appear to be present and accounted for. The Dawson rookie had a ding.

Pulled a gorgeous Munson that made me very happy...then dinged the hell out of a corner when I slipped while loading it into a toploader. D'oh!

One of the Reggies noted above was YELLOW. Not sure if that's a print defect or the result of aging or whatever, but there were two or three other cards like that in the box.

When I get back, I will start going through the commons, trying to see what's worth shipping off to PSA before the November special ends.

Thanks for all your help and input, everyone. It was SO MUCH FUN opening this box, and brought back a ton of childhood memories. DGF, I'll contact you when I figure out what I've got, if you're still interested in trading. If you have a particular want list, feel free to PM.

-Al

Love of the Game

Okay, so here's the update, in case anyone is actually paying any attention to this, or cares.

Got home from the holiday weekend on Saturday evening, and went through the box, pulling aside anything that was visibly off-centered. Then I took the cards that were properly centered, and used DGF's 1977 grading guide to find cards that might qualify for a 10. Then I compared what I had left with scans of 9s and 10s on the set registry. Ultimately I was left with two cards - #625 Ken Holtzman and #627 Bob Myrick.

To have pulled just two cards out of an entire box leaves me thinking there's a possibility that perhaps I'm being too strict! Many of these cards look sharp and have strong centering but then have some snow or a tiny stain. So I pulled together the HOFers and a handful of other sharp commons, and I'll send in a submission on Monday along with a few others that I want graded before the November special is over. Here's what I'm sending from the '77 set:

#625 Holtzman
#627 Myrick
# 363 Dave Roberts
#359 Willie Randolph
#77 Dyar Miller
#395 Manny Trillo
#555 Dan Ford
#587 Rick Baldwin
#580 George Brett (the box had a Brett after all, but my wife who helped me with the box didn't notice it)
#10 Reggie (x 2, sending in both)
#650 Nolan (x2)
#450 Pete Rose
#265 Fidrych
#6 Strikeout Leaders (Ryan/Seaver)
#170 Munson (dinged corner and all)

This is turning out to be a big submission, as I'm also including a bunch more modern cards as well as a '72 Mays that I've wanted slabbed for a while.

We'll see. I'll post the grades when I get them. I'm also going to my first show in a LONG time this coming weekend in Pennsylvania, and I'll be looking for some more unopened stuff from my childhood when I'm there. I had way too much fun doing this, and now I've got the bug.

-Al

downgoesfrazier

Novocent,
Dyar Miller is one BAAAAAAAD HOMBRE! Good luck with it!!! If Holtzman 10's, give me a shout!! You could be pleasantly surprised if you get the right grader on the right day. Two 10's for a vending box isn't unusual. I have a good feeling about this one...best of luck and keep us posted!!!


dgf

SOM

On the topic of 1977's: I sent in my first submission of 77's this month, and got them back last week. These are from my HC set compiled years ago. I might take a shot at the Registry with the rest of the set, but I'm pretty nervous about the incredible number of pop "0" and "1" and "2's" in the '77 set.

77's/78's

1978 was a snap compared to what might await me in '77!

(If my link didn't work, it's sub 563703, zip 90405)

Nick

downgoesfrazier

Nick,
Please email me at (maysfan24@yahoo.com)

I have an interesting offer for you.

Thanks!
dgf