How high will it go?? Take a guess

VMFA115

Here is a Mantle, 1969T, PSA-10, 1 of 1 on eBay.

My guess, $14,500

Dave C. (hope I did the link right but don't count on it)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5136412442&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Text

dallasactuary

Link that works

pandrews

and a link to the BVG 9.5 holder it used to be in here..

interchanges

Wow, probably a safe bet that he'll make that worth his gamble.

pandrews

He's already at $8000 and he only paid $5700 for the BVG..

WinPitcher

guy is lucky it didnt come back a 9

in this case a bvg 9.5 did equal a psa 10

BugOnTheRug

<< <i>the BVG 9.5 holder it used to be in here >>


a cross-over or a crackout? Very steady hands needed for the high-stakes latter........hmmmmmm.

BOTR

gaspipe26

I'll bet it hits $20000.

packCollector

and the link from the 1st sale in the bvg holder

I think it's safe to assume this card was sent in for a crossover and failed the 1st time probably coming back trimmed. I prefer grading cards and would never want to go back to raw shady dealers but this is the case where the end buyer is not buying what he thinks he is

Buccaneer

<< <i>and the link from the 1st sale in the bvg holder

I think it's safe to assume this card was sent in for a crossover and failed the 1st time probably coming back trimmed. I prefer grading cards and would never want to go back to raw shady dealers but this is the case where the end buyer is not buying what he thinks he is >>



Just to be clear, are you saying that this particular Mantle in a PSA 10 holder has been trimmed?

pandrews

<< <i>and the link from the 1st sale in the bvg holder

I think it's safe to assume this card was sent in for a crossover and failed the 1st time probably coming back trimmed. I prefer grading cards and would never want to go back to raw shady dealers but this is the case where the end buyer is not buying what he thinks he is >>



how do you come up with this assumption that it failed the 1st time?

rvc

recently in one of those big auctions there was a 1969 uncut sheet with 2 mantles on it. seems to me that this is probably where the card came from - how could such a nice looking card go ungraded until now? i dont think psa would cross over any bvg's into psa 10's.

packCollector

what I am saying is that the 1st buyer (madeleinelee)of the bvg card is a psa collector and buyer of high end psa 9/10 cards who doesn't sell. madeleinelee has sold 2 cards since registering on ebay in may 1999, this was 1 of them. based on that , I would say he bought the card and tried to cross it and it didn't cross or came back trimmed ( meaning sheet cut , psa does not make a distinction between the 2), that is why madeleinelee sold the card back on ebay immediately. the second buyer had better results and got lucky and crossed it.

also with all the sheets that mastro has sold and one being a 69 sheet with 2 mantles , funny this card went to bvg. also , all the 66 topps hockey went to bvg considering the amount of sheets of those that have come up recently. I am not criticizing the original in any way if he did cut up the sheets, it disgusts me but he isn't doing anything illegal, unethical but not illegal. it is not against "bvg" rules to grade these so that's what he did if he did cut it up.

imo, a dealer that deals in all graded cards that sends vintage cards to bvg only does it because they are from a sheet. thats why there are bvg 9.5 orr rookies but there aren't any graded over an 8 at psa. that's why there are tons of perfect 74 opc hockey in bvg holders but psa hasn't graded more than a handful of 9's.

aro13

One of the usual tell tale signs of a sheet cut the BVG subgrades - 9 for edges, 9.5 for surface - do not indicate a sheet cut.

rvc

<< <i>I am not criticizing the original in any way if he did cut up the sheets, it disgusts me >>




me too!

WinPitcher

BVG 9.5 with subgrades of 9.5,9,9.5,9.5.


the above are subgrades for the mantle in question.

gaspipe26

If the card did come from a sheet, it wouldnt bother me in the least. I've never understood why PSA wouldnt grade sheet cuts anyway. Yeah OK the card wasnt cut and packaged in 1969, but the card still was made in 1969 and lets be really honest, how many people can really tell? I just dont think its a big deal. Just my opinion as a collector of 1969.

liffeystynx

Anybody think this will be a full-page ad in the next SMR?

BVG 9.5 = $5,700

the same card in a PSA holder = $????

Says it all!

BugOnTheRug

<< <i>If the card did come from a sheet, it wouldnt bother me in the least. I've never understood why PSA wouldnt grade sheet cuts anyway. Yeah OK the card wasnt cut and packaged in 1969, but the card still was made in 1969 and lets be really honest, how many people can really tell? I just dont think its a big deal. >>


It wouldn't bother me either, IF it were purchased for substancially less coin. Cards cut from sheets allow the owner to bypass the original methods used to create that card. Think about it - EVERYBODY could probably dial in perfect centering, perfect edges, and with proper handling, perfect corners. With this in mind, I want no part in paying a premium for a sheet cut card.

What IS a big deal and worth paying a premium for, is a card like mentioned above that was cut at the factory in '69, that has perfect centering based on this, that has far better than normal edges and corners (maybe a fresh set of blades/wires), and has withstood unscathed the potential of packaging damages, and of course, being fortunate to be kept in this condition for 35 years.

BOTR

bobsbbcards

Personally, I would avoid the card if it were sheet cut. The flip side of the debate though, is that it is extremely hard for sheets to survive in Gem Mint condition for 35 years. I would have loved to see the sheet before it was cut up (if that is the case here). Was it truly Mint or did the creases and scuffs that plague older sheets just happen to spare this Mantle?

rvc

i'd take the uncut sheet any day of the week. frame it and hang it up and enjoy it rather than tuck it away somewhere. the uncut sheet is probably rarer than the single card.

jackstraw

<< <i>If the card did come from a sheet, it wouldnt bother me in the least. I've never understood why PSA wouldnt grade sheet cuts anyway. Yeah OK the card wasnt cut and packaged in 1969, but the card still was made in 1969 and lets be really honest, how many people can really tell? I just dont think its a big deal. Just my opinion as a collector of 1969. >>



bob no disrespect: there is a huge difference. can you tell the difference between a card that was cut recently from a sheet and a trim job? thats why psa doesn't slab them they can't tell the difference. from what your saying you wouldn't have a problem with a trimmed,recolored and restored card because it was manufactured in 1969 or whatever year ?on the other hand i think there is a market for sheet cut/trimmed cards as long as they designated it as such. if there isn't a market for them in psa holders the submissions will stop and start going back to bgs.

gaspipe26

I'd agree except that the card is not trimmed. It was full size or it wouldnt be in the holder. I dont know how they cut it but they would be full size. A trimmed card is a card that was full size and no longer is because some of it was trimmed away. In my opinion thats the difference. What shouldnt be in a holder is the 1975 PSA 8 Santo piece of crap in the thread labeled PSa 8 diamond cut. Thats more infuriating to me than a card cut full size from a sheet.

mikeschmidt

<< <i>I'd agree except that the card is not trimmed. It was full size or it wouldnt be in the holder. I dont know how they cut it but they would be full size. A trimmed card is a card that was full size and no longer is because some of it was trimmed away. In my opinion thats the difference. What shouldnt be in a holder is the 1975 PSA 8 Santo piece of crap in the thread labeled PSa 8 diamond cut. Thats more infuriating to me than a card cut full size from a sheet. >>



Gaspipe:

Many argue that a card cut from a sheet is analgolous to a trimmed card. You can essentially "tailor" the centering, edges and corners to be perfect on a freshly sheet-cut card.

Also, there are numerous issues with sizing variations - more notably in the pre-1960s environment - but definitely evident in the early 1960s issues. If, for example, you have a card that is factory oversize and subsequently trimmed down to "standard" size - it is nonetheless trimmed.

~ms

Buccaneer

Also, there is a difference in cutting a sheet via a feeding machine (as they did in the 1960s) vs. using precision instruments (like lasers) to custom cut a single sheet.

calleocho

10 grand already.

do you guys think this card will be in mastro in the future?

mikeschmidt

No - at the price levels currently - there does not seem to be much incentive to consign and sell through Mastro or another big auction house.

jackstraw

does anyone else find it odd that the cert numbers lower are non existent? so far i am at 146.

miami3

I am placing my bet at 23 grand.

Basilone

<< <i>Many argue that a card cut from a sheet is analgolous to a trimmed card. You can essentially "tailor" the centering, edges and corners to be perfect on a freshly sheet-cut card. >>



Well Said.

Fabfrank

If the card did come from a sheet, it wouldnt bother me in the least. I've never understood why PSA wouldnt grade sheet cuts anyway. Yeah OK the card wasnt cut and packaged in 1969, but the card still was made in 1969 and lets be really honest, how many people can really tell? I just dont think its a big deal. Just my opinion as a collector of 1969.

Gaspipe- I agree with you on this. We had a thread on this about a year ago and this opinion was in the minority. My feeling is that I collect the card, not the cutting machine. As long as the card came from an original sheet from year of issue, it really doesn't matter to me when the card is released from the sheet.

brumbach

I have to agree with some of the above sentiments that if you are knowingly selling a card that has been cut from a sheet then that fact should be disclosed when the card is sold.

Much or most of the value in high grade cards, and especially high-grade graded cards, is in the fact that the card has survived an incredible gauntlet. It was cut nicely or perfectly at the factory on it's birthdate, it survived manufacturing and packaging, it survived the rigors of time and handling, etc. I believe that this is a big reason for the prices realized on high-grade vintage graded cards. It isn't just that they are nice or mint or pristine or what have you, but the process of survival through the years. That allure is removed when you say that you bought an uncut sheet last week and had the cards professionally cut from it.

Fabfrank

brumbach- You make it sound like uncut vintage sheets are in great supply

WinPitcher

original owner makes no mention of sheet cut



Dear Winpitcher

I couldn't believe that he got a 10 on the card three weeks after I sold it to him. I showed it to three dealers around the country and locally and all agreed that the card does not deserve a 10. The back is dirty - it doesn't have the bright white and pink/salmon color that 69's should have. It also has a tiny touch in the corner and some rough edging.

jason

this is the gist of his email to me

JonB

Looks like a couple bids were canceled and one was retracted... interesting.

BugOnTheRug

Well there you have it..............$12,555 for the Mantle that's sure to be a conversation piece for awhile. The runner-up may also be a conversation piece with a top bid of $12,455 and having 10 feedbacks and a 81.3 rating - his recent purchases were slot machines. Maybe that Mantle was going be the 7-7-7 prize!

BOTR