<< <i><<<so, why the he11 would you buy a coin if you "might" want to sell it right back?>>>
Call me John Kerry, but occasionally I change my mind, upgrade a coin, shift collecting focus, etc. I do not buy a coin with the intent of taking it to the grave with me. >>
it's not a question of changing your mind, the question is that you want to shift the focus of RESPONSIBILITY unto someone else, & that's just plain NOT FAIR. you bet you have a right to change your mind, & you know what? YOU ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.
i'm tired of whiners always wanting an "out" for every little mistake. THAT'S why insurance is so high in this country, THAT'S why people can't buy coins w/out the alleged assurance of a "slab", THAT'S why the whole danged society is topsy turvy, because people don't accept RESPONSIBILITY for their actions, whether accidental or not.
take your lumps & move on. you screwed up, & that's ok. what's important is that you learn from your mistake & don't repeat it.
the "specialist dealer" is NOT the guilty party here. YOU ARE.
Sorry, Karl, I totally, completely, and 100% DISAGREE with you.
I am not talking about the dealer getting you "out of a mistake". I am talking about a dealer making you a reasonable wholesale offer on coins that you bought from him, especially when the dealer claims expertise in that area and has a usual inventory of like coins.
While there is no obligation to do so, there are enough dealer out there who are happy to buy back what they sell, even prefer to buy back what they sell, and I will deal with them.
This has nothing to do with taking responsibility for a decision but more to do with a crooked one-way market.
(By the way, this is not a case of a mistake that I made. I know better to than to buy coins from such a dealer.)
Karl, I don't think anyone is suggesting that they don't want to take responsibility, or that they are looking for an "out" to cover a mistake.
You obviously feel differently, but some of us believe that a dealer should be interested in buying back coins, not that they ought to be forced to buy them back. As I said before, if a coin is as desirable and rare as it is claimed to be, and knowing that such coins cannot be bought by the truckload, then it would seem logical that a specialist dealer would like the opportunity to once again place great coins with another collector. If a dealer isn't interested in making an offer on great coins I bought from him/her, I conclude either that the coin wasn't all that great in the first place, or that the offer would be so low I would be insulted.
It's not whining, avoiding responsibility, or "changing my mind" if I offer a coin back to where I bought it. The dealer is free to decline. I, and some others, prefer working with dealers who will maintain some form of two-way market. Just because that's not a factor for you, doesn't mean the rest of us have done anything wrong. We just prefer a different type of relationship.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I know firms that have made offers on coins they don't want at all just to keep clients happy.
TDN,
Different animal completely. Personally, I prefer to not put my dealers in such a position. It is easy enough for me to sell on ebay or sell to an anonymous dealer at show.
<< <i>Sorry, Karl, I totally, completely, and 100% DISAGREE with you.
I am not talking about the dealer getting you "out of a mistake". I am talking about a dealer making you a reasonable wholesale offer on coins that you bought from him, especially when the dealer claims expertise in that area and has a usual inventory of like coins. >>
hey ryk, in my prev & following comments, i don't mean "you" personally, i speaking of a hypothetical situation.
<< <i>You obviously feel differently, but some of us believe that a dealer should be interested in buying back coins >>
then yes, we disagree. i believe a dealer may or may not be interested, & his interest could vary over time. i mean, is a car dealer typically interested in buying back you oldsmobile, even for a "wholesale" price? is wal-mart gonna buy back your half-used boxes of kleenex? does your local iga make an offer on buying back the 8 unused eggs from your carton? maybe, maybe not. the point is, you or i have no right to EXPECT it of a dealer.
<< <i>Karl, hypothetically, would you at least agree, that as a matter of common courtesy, a client's phone call (or email) should be returned? >>
totally separate issue. anyone in biz. would be idiotic not to return phone calls, but it has no dependency on whether you bought something from him or not.
maybe instead of "expecting" a dealer to make an offer, YOU should make the initial offer, & give him the opportunity to accept or pass.
I have to agree with DK on this one. Sure it'd be nice if dealers always wanted to buy back coins that they sold to you, but it's not realistic to expect a dealer, of any type, to make a wholesale offer. Perhaps he already has 10 PR66DCAM whatevers in his inventory and doesn't need yours. A small business is never easy to run and manage. You have to be able to anticipate and project costs/income/sales.
Imagine trying to project on any given day how many customers are going to call and ask you to buy back their coins you sold them 3 years ago. How could you factor that into your daily operations and cash flow. You couldn't, and I don't think most dealers could have a sizable amount of money sitting in the bank earning interest @ 2% waiting for the calls to flood in.
This might all change depending on the customer as well as the dollar value of the transaction. Obviously as TDN pointed out if I had a customer that was spending a great deal of money with my firm, of course you buy back the coins. Matter of fact, you buy ANYTHING they want to sell you. But what benefit would it be to the business to spend $20,000 buying back coins from a 1 time customer that has absolutely no interest in buying anything more from you??
Perhaps taking the coins on consignment is the best option. And I do blame R&I for at least not stepping up to the plate and doing something along those lines to help out any customer. It really is the easiest solution for all parties. And I find it problematic if no one from R&I ever returned the calls or emails. Again, why pay retail and get wholesale service???
Your analogies are silly. The coin isn't used or soiled. It's state hasn't changed from the time you bought it to the time you solicit an offer to sell it. It doesn't get sold by a used coin dealer instead of a new coin dealer.
>i believe a dealer may or may not be interested, & his interest could vary over time You seem to be looking for wild or rare instances that could account for the behavior in question. Why don't you take the question as it was intended (regarding this specific instance). The dealer still deals in the type of coins in question, right RYK?
Why wouldn't he make any kind of offer on a coin he sold? Not that he is obligated to. But why wouldn't he? Not a 20% restocking fee? Not 30% off? Not 50% off? Why?
There are specific reasons why a dealer cannot (or won't) take back a coin that he sold, or that he has to do it at a significant discount. But, those reasons should be reasonable and the dealer should not be afraid to articulate them.
The dealer could say any of the following:
1. I'm sorry, but I'm in a very bad situation right now. Let me see if I can help you out in some other way (e.g., consignment). 2. I'm sorry, but I'm overstocked on that particular type of stuff right now. I can only offer you X, but you'd be better off going to these other dealers. 3. I'm sorry, but the market has tanked on this stuff. I can only do this much on the coin to buy, or perhaps do better if you consign it to me.
In any case, if the dealer cares about his product, reputation and his business, then he will try to work with the customer. Some way, somehow. There should be very limited exceptions to this.
Don't mind Karl. I think he gets a kick out of being contrarian. He'll probably disagree with me, and hope that we'll wrestle with the profound contradiction in that!
<< <i>There are specific reasons why a dealer cannot (or won't) take back a coin that he sold, or that he has to do it at a significant discount. But, those reasons should be reasonable and the dealer should not be afraid to articulate them.
The dealer could say any of the following:
1. I'm sorry, but I'm in a very bad situation right now. Let me see if I can help you out in some other way (e.g., consignment). 2. I'm sorry, but I'm overstocked on that particular type of stuff right now. I can only offer you X, but you'd be better off going to these other dealers. 3. I'm sorry, but the market has tanked on this stuff. I can only do this much on the coin to buy, or perhaps do better if you consign it to me.
Or #4 You were whacked 100% on this "investment" quality coin and obviously we can't let that become illuminated here so go away.
Can somebody explain something.......since I am not really a student of the modern market.....how is it that dealers like R&I can consistently sell at retail prices - are these coins NOT coming up at auctions (which seemingly would have at most a 30% spread)? If you buy out of inventory at R&I and sell through an auction, how big is the downside?
For what its worth, as a collector, not a dealer, I would buy a coin from a dealer who would not buy a coin back. Actually, in 20+ years of collecting I have never brought up buy-backs during a deal, but some dealers did, although this did not influence my decision.
Since I frequently trade up, the price I pay is important, knowledge of what a coin will sell for at auction, to dealers, or ebay is more important than relying on one dealer for buy-backs. I have some exceptions to this if a die variety is very rare, or a rare die state, then I really don't care about resale.
Bill
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Its a business (that's a problem with collectors right away), however working with an unknown 'dealer', its about TRUST.
Buy a coin, cause you like it. Dealer makes a fair profit. 2 years later you offer to the same dealer the same coin. They decline.
Why decline? The dealer will just churn it, make more profit. Why would they NOT consider to buy it back? Why? They profited once on it, they must have considered it 'marketable'. Now they don't?
And if the dealer does not make an offer, even if the typical dealer way lo-ball, TRUST is lost. And the collector takes her/his business elseware.
Business 101, first rate customer service, establish trust with your clientele, be respectful of and socialable with your customers
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Possibly a couple of them.
This is much more about bashing moderns and a modern dealer than it is about any real difference between classics and moderns. Oh sure there is a difference between high priced coins and low priced coins but this is mostly being ignored.
Like all such bashing threads those doing the bashing are inventing differences between those who collect, study, and deal the coins and the coins themselves.
Some dealers do not want to buy back their coins. It's actually more like many dealers don't want to buy back their coins and this generally does not apply to dealers who move very high priced coins. Most dealers if offered a coin they know they sold will "stretch" to buy it back. If they don't recognize it then they will of- fer their typical price which often varies with how big a customer is selling the coin. Those who don't believe this can convince themselves pretty quickly by offerring a few coins around. People do need to sell coins to see what they are worth.
There are many reasons dealers might not want to buy a coin and those mentioned hardly constitute a comprehensive list. One real difference with moderns for in- stance is that valuable coins are available raw. This is really a strenght though, no doubt, someone can spin it into a weakness. Like all coins, raw and slabbed mod- erns are worth what you can get for them. If the dealer who sold them to you doesn't want them back then just buck-up and sell them elsewhere.
It's a real shame that a good business has to be slammed just so moderns can be bashed.
CK, I can't speak for anyone else, but none of my comments had a thing to do with classics or moderns. If this thread is about moderns, that aspect sure has escaped me.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>CK, I can't speak for anyone else, but none of my comments had a thing to do with classics or moderns. If this thread is about moderns, that aspect sure has escaped me. >>
I should have been more specific perhaps. I believe it's bashing that's feeding it. Most of the posters have not engaged in bashing.
It has absolutely nothing to do with clads or moderns. It has to do with a major retail dealer, who sells single coins worth thousands of dollars each, and others of lesser value, who will not offer any buyback price at all on the coins he sells. That is what this whole thing is about. If he doesnt want to buyback coins for a lesser price, that is his business. But I think that no offer at all is bad business. Especially when coupled with fact of not even returning phone calls or emails about the subject. That is not good business in my opinion. I would at least let someone know by some type of communication that I would not offer them a buy back on one of the coins they had purchased from me.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
<< <i>It has absolutely nothing to do with clads or moderns. It has to do with a major retail dealer, who sells single coins worth thousands of dollars each, and others of lesser value, who will not offer any buyback price at all on the coins he sells. That is what this whole thing is about. If he doesnt want to buyback coins for a lesser price, that is his business. But I think that no offer at all is bad business. Especially when coupled with fact of not even returning phone calls or emails about the subject. That is not good business in my opinion. I would at least let someone know by some type of communication that I would not offer them a buy back on one of the coins they had purchased from me. >>
Ah, but I distinctly remember it being said that they are interested in buying monsters. It's the less expensive coins that few dealers have much interest in buying.
I dont think this is about moderns at all, I would have had the same problem had another dealer hyped liberty nickels, sold them for full retail and then not returned my phone calls.
<< <i>Karl, Your analogies are silly. The coin isn't used or soiled. It's state hasn't changed from the time you bought it >>
no, but the state of the MARKET may have changed, & to assume that a dealer's going to buy a coin independent of market conditions is even sillier.
so to follow what your saying, let's say dealer-dave buys 10 1926-o dcam morgan dollars because they're rare. he sell's em to ryk. a hoard of 12,950 suddenly comes to market, so ryk wants to sell 'em back to dealer-dave.
is it FAIR to expect that dealer-dave's gonna want to make an offer on the coins?
i don't EVEN THINK so.
<< <i>What do you think the simplest explanation is for why a dealer wouldn't make an offer on a coin he sold you? >>
BINGO.
<< <i>Don't mind Karl. I think he gets a kick out of being contrarian. >>
sorry, but when i'm right, i'm right, & this time, i'm right. it is wrong to expect a dealer to make an offer on ANYTHING, regardless of if you bought it from him or not. totally irrelevant.
1 more thing, that the coins are "moderns" is COMLETELY IRRELEVANT.
I dont think this is about moderns at all, I would have had the same problem had another dealer hyped liberty nickels, sold them for full retail and then not returned my phone calls.
John >>
I can't defend anyone who won't return calls or apparently has poor customer service but when was the last time a thread about a classic dealer's customer service got so much attention? There was a thread last year about a dealer who didn't answer his phone or e-mails and all it recieved was a handful of responses from people having the same problem with the company. Granted this company is larger and better known, though.
Perhaps I am making too much out of this. But it seems some very negative comments have been made that went far beyond what most percieve as poor customer service. This company has a reputation for honesty and delivering what they promise. They also have a reputation for not being big buyers. They do apparently spend a lot on advertising.
I did not mean to embarass anyone or point fingers so much as I'm trying to understand why this thread is so negative.
OK, I'll answer the question. No, I would not buy coins from a dealer who does not buy them back at any price. If they have little to no worth to the dealer, then I instantly know they are overpriced. Still, like many have said, nobody forced you to buy. If you are happy with the coin then you are a happy collector.
I know of the dealer in question and have received their newsletters and have seen their coins at a major show. I didn't buy because I could find what I wanted for a lower price. That is not an attack on this dealer. It is just how the market works. If you are a dealer and I don't buy from you it is beacuse I can find the same coin or item at the same quaility or grade from another dealer for a lower price.
I would only buy from specialist dealers if they have a buy back policy. If they are a specialist they should have a specialized field of coin collecting and gladly buy them back. If they're willing to buy them back, you can assume your buying good stuff.
Scott Hopkins -YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.
"Would you buy a coin from a specialist dealer that would not buy it back (at any price)?"
Without having read the entire thread, first I have to make an assumption implied in the question which is: I must know from some third party, before I consider buying the coin, that the dealer won't buy his material back at any price.
So my answer would be NO BECAUSE I WOULD NOT BUY THE KIND OF COIN THAT A DEALER WOULD NOT WANT BACK BECAUSE THE ONLY KIND OF COIN A DEALER WOULD NOT WANT TO BUY BACK AT ANY PRICE IS A MODERN COIN. THE ONLY REASON HE WOULD NOT BUY IT BACK IS BECAUSE HE OR SHE DOESN'T WANT THE PUBLIC TO KNOW WHAT THE TRUE BUY/SELL SPREAD IS ON THESE TYPE OF COINS. Dealers want to keep the buy/sell spreads on modern coins confidential because THEY'RE HUGE.
(That's one of the main reasons why I don't recommend modern coins. There are enough modern coins out there to sink a battleship. But if you collect them because they're pretty and you know that they're worth a small fraction of what you pay for them, then go for it! Just don't kid yourself into believing that it's an investment. It's like collecting pretty stamps from the post office. Did you know you can buy stamps made in the 50's at a fraction of a dollar? That's right, you can buy a bucks worth of stamps made in the 50's for less than a dollar. Why? Because there's enough of them out there to sink a battleship and it's more trouble than it's worth to stick 6 or 7 stamps on an envelope than one 37 cent stamp......AND NO BODY WANTS THEM.)
Same question - how can moderns bought out of auction possibly be worth only a fraction of what you pay for them when there is no more than a 30% spread working here (OK, maybe 35% if you count the underbidder). Just how is it that the market makers are able to keep all the "good stuff" out of the auction venues. Doesn't make sense.
(That's one of the main reasons why I don't recommend modern coins. There are enough modern coins out there to sink a battleship. But if you collect them because they're pretty and you know that they're worth a small fraction of what you pay for them, then go for it!
>>
...and I thought this was a modern bashing thread!!!
The spreads on many moderns are actually lower thanthe price on older coins. Mint and proof sets usually are bought and sold for very small spreads. More and more of these are being sold at retail but this can be as low as 150% of ask. BU single prices are usually not much different from wholesale to retail. Yes, don't expect to get 20c for the MS-60 '75 penny you bought for a quarter, but Ikes that wholesale at $140 per roll usually retail for less than $10.
There are many billions of coins in circulation and there is no battleship that would float them. But if you think you can sink a ship with MS-68 regular issue Ikes then you are not paying at- tention or reading other peoples posts. Calling all moderns common may bring satisfaction to some but it doesn't fill any holes in peoples' collections.
the problem w/ ultra moderns is that there's only about 2 people collecting 'em seriously in the entire country, & both of 'em live in n. dakota.
just kidding of course, but seriously, very few collectors would actually collect 'em w/ the intent of putting together sets, ie. registry sets. so the market is very slim.
the problem isn't unique to ultra moderns, it applies, ironically, to series such as connecticuts. the top 3 coins in the condition census are worth 4 or 5 digits, then there's an enormous drop-off for anything lesser. that's becuase all 3 collectors of condition census connecticuts live w/in 2 miles of each other in trenton, new jersey.
I've known one specialist dealer that bought coins he sold back. And above wholesale at that! He had the nicest coins going, but at full retail or better. I kept 90% of what he used to send me on approval. He just kind of disappeared after a divorce.
I loved that man!
The kind you are talking about can suck eggs!
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
I don't do it all the time but I voted "sure." Why? Because I'm a hardcore collector, not a speculator or investor so I gives less than a damn if anybody else would buy it or not.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Heck, most don't even post their sell prices here on the boards for hope of getting someone to offer a ridiculously high price. <STRONG>"PM's ONLY"</STRONG> >>
You can find the real wholesale prices in the classified sections of Coin World or any of the major papers. You can usually do 10 to 30% better than these prices if you are patient and shop around a little. Some of the highest buyers don't advertise in these venues but sometimes will print an ad suggesting you write. Collectors do need to sell some coins on occasion to learn what the coins' true values are. Monster moderns are highly sought by all the specialist dealers and by many serious collectors. Like other higher priced coins the spreads are not as great as they are for lower priced coins.
I am a collector/ promoter/ investor in moderns and do not personally deal in them.
I do intend to start dealing coins in the future but prices are far too low at the current time to make this worthwhile.
Call me John Kerry, but occasionally I change my mind, upgrade a coin, shift collecting focus, etc. I do not buy a coin with the intent of taking it to the grave with me.
<< <i>the problem w/ ultra moderns is that there's only about 2 people collecting 'em seriously in the entire country, & both of 'em live in n. dakota.
just kidding of course, but seriously, very few collectors would actually collect 'em w/ the intent of putting together sets, ie. registry sets. so the market is very slim.
the problem isn't unique to ultra moderns, it applies, ironically, to series such as connecticuts. the top 3 coins in the condition census are worth 4 or 5 digits, then there's an enormous drop-off for anything lesser. that's becuase all 3 collectors of condition census connecticuts live w/in 2 miles of each other in trenton, new jersey.
> so to follow what your saying, let's say dealer-dave buys 10 1926-o dcam morgan dollars because they're rare. he sell's em > to ryk. a hoard of 12,950 suddenly comes to market, so ryk wants to sell 'em back to dealer-dave.
<< What do you think the simplest explanation is for why a dealer wouldn't make an offer on a coin he sold you? >>
> BINGO.
Karl,
Um, bingo isn't an answer. Do you mean to say the dealer won't come up with an offer because he's busy playing bingo. Speak plainly man. Answer the question.
You think that a hoard of 12,950 coins just like RYK's have come on the market and that's why the dealer wouldn't make an offer?
Don't just declare that you're right, explain yourself.
Comments
Link
<< <i><<<so, why the he11 would you buy a coin if you "might" want to sell it right back?>>>
Call me John Kerry, but occasionally I change my mind, upgrade a coin, shift collecting focus, etc. I do not buy a coin with the intent of taking it to the grave with me. >>
it's not a question of changing your mind, the question is that you want to shift the focus of RESPONSIBILITY unto someone else, & that's just plain NOT FAIR. you bet you have a right to change your mind, & you know what? YOU ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES.
i'm tired of whiners always wanting an "out" for every little mistake. THAT'S why insurance is so high in this country, THAT'S why people can't buy coins w/out the alleged assurance of a "slab", THAT'S why the whole danged society is topsy turvy, because people don't accept RESPONSIBILITY for their actions, whether accidental or not.
take your lumps & move on. you screwed up, & that's ok. what's important is that you learn from your mistake & don't repeat it.
the "specialist dealer" is NOT the guilty party here. YOU ARE.
K S
I am not talking about the dealer getting you "out of a mistake". I am talking about a dealer making you a reasonable wholesale offer on coins that you bought from him, especially when the dealer claims expertise in that area and has a usual inventory of like coins.
While there is no obligation to do so, there are enough dealer out there who are happy to buy back what they sell, even prefer to buy back what they sell, and I will deal with them.
This has nothing to do with taking responsibility for a decision but more to do with a crooked one-way market.
(By the way, this is not a case of a mistake that I made. I know better to than to buy coins from such a dealer.)
You obviously feel differently, but some of us believe that a dealer should be interested in buying back coins, not that they ought to be forced to buy them back. As I said before, if a coin is as desirable and rare as it is claimed to be, and knowing that such coins cannot be bought by the truckload, then it would seem logical that a specialist dealer would like the opportunity to once again place great coins with another collector. If a dealer isn't interested in making an offer on great coins I bought from him/her, I conclude either that the coin wasn't all that great in the first place, or that the offer would be so low I would be insulted.
It's not whining, avoiding responsibility, or "changing my mind" if I offer a coin back to where I bought it. The dealer is free to decline. I, and some others, prefer working with dealers who will maintain some form of two-way market. Just because that's not a factor for you, doesn't mean the rest of us have done anything wrong. We just prefer a different type of relationship.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Different end of the spectrum, I guess.
TDN,
Different animal completely. Personally, I prefer to not put my dealers in such a position. It is easy enough for me to sell on ebay or sell to an anonymous dealer at show.
<< <i>Sorry, Karl, I totally, completely, and 100% DISAGREE with you.
I am not talking about the dealer getting you "out of a mistake". I am talking about a dealer making you a reasonable wholesale offer on coins that you bought from him, especially when the dealer claims expertise in that area and has a usual inventory of like coins. >>
hey ryk, in my prev & following comments, i don't mean "you" personally, i speaking of a hypothetical situation.
<< <i>You obviously feel differently, but some of us believe that a dealer should be interested in buying back coins >>
then yes, we disagree. i believe a dealer may or may not be interested, & his interest could vary over time. i mean, is a car dealer typically interested in buying back you oldsmobile, even for a "wholesale" price? is wal-mart gonna buy back your half-used boxes of kleenex? does your local iga make an offer on buying back the 8 unused eggs from your carton? maybe, maybe not. the point is, you or i have no right to EXPECT it of a dealer.
<< <i>Karl, hypothetically, would you at least agree, that as a matter of common courtesy, a client's phone call (or email) should be returned? >>
totally separate issue. anyone in biz. would be idiotic not to return phone calls, but it has no dependency on whether you bought something from him or not.
maybe instead of "expecting" a dealer to make an offer, YOU should make the initial offer, & give him the opportunity to accept or pass.
K S
Imagine trying to project on any given day how many customers are going to call and ask you to buy back their coins you sold them 3 years ago. How could you factor that into your daily operations and cash flow. You couldn't, and I don't think most dealers could have a sizable amount of money sitting in the bank earning interest @ 2% waiting for the calls to flood in.
This might all change depending on the customer as well as the dollar value of the transaction. Obviously as TDN pointed out if I had a customer that was spending a great deal of money with my firm, of course you buy back the coins. Matter of fact, you buy ANYTHING they want to sell you. But what benefit would it be to the business to spend $20,000 buying back coins from a 1 time customer that has absolutely no interest in buying anything more from you??
Perhaps taking the coins on consignment is the best option. And I do blame R&I for at least not stepping up to the plate and doing something along those lines to help out any customer. It really is the easiest solution for all parties. And I find it problematic if no one from R&I ever returned the calls or emails. Again, why pay retail and get wholesale service???
TPN
Your analogies are silly. The coin isn't used or soiled. It's state hasn't changed from the time you bought it to the time you
solicit an offer to sell it. It doesn't get sold by a used coin dealer instead of a new coin dealer.
>i believe a dealer may or may not be interested, & his interest could vary over time
You seem to be looking for wild or rare instances that could account for the behavior in question.
Why don't you take the question as it was intended (regarding this specific instance). The dealer still deals in the type of
coins in question, right RYK?
Why wouldn't he make any kind of offer on a coin he sold? Not that he is obligated to. But why wouldn't he? Not a 20%
restocking fee? Not 30% off? Not 50% off? Why?
Aren't you curious at all?
-KHayse
I got a kick out of your sig. I just noticed it.
What do you think the simplest explanation is for why a dealer wouldn't make an offer on a coin he sold you?
-KHayse
The dealer could say any of the following:
1. I'm sorry, but I'm in a very bad situation right now. Let me see if I can help you out in some other way (e.g., consignment).
2. I'm sorry, but I'm overstocked on that particular type of stuff right now. I can only offer you X, but you'd be better off going to these other dealers.
3. I'm sorry, but the market has tanked on this stuff. I can only do this much on the coin to buy, or perhaps do better if you consign it to me.
In any case, if the dealer cares about his product, reputation and his business, then he will try to work with the customer. Some way, somehow. There should be very limited exceptions to this.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Don't mind Karl. I think he gets a kick out of being contrarian. He'll probably disagree with me, and hope that we'll wrestle with the profound contradiction in that!
LOL!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>There are specific reasons why a dealer cannot (or won't) take back a coin that he sold, or that he has to do it at a significant discount. But, those reasons should be reasonable and the dealer should not be afraid to articulate them.
The dealer could say any of the following:
1. I'm sorry, but I'm in a very bad situation right now. Let me see if I can help you out in some other way (e.g., consignment).
2. I'm sorry, but I'm overstocked on that particular type of stuff right now. I can only offer you X, but you'd be better off going to these other dealers.
3. I'm sorry, but the market has tanked on this stuff. I can only do this much on the coin to buy, or perhaps do better if you consign it to me.
Or #4
You were whacked 100% on this "investment" quality coin and obviously we can't let that become illuminated here so go away.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Since I frequently trade up, the price I pay is important, knowledge of what a coin will sell for at auction, to dealers, or ebay is more important than relying on one dealer for buy-backs. I have some exceptions to this if a die variety is very rare, or a rare die state, then I really don't care about resale.
Bill
Buy a coin, cause you like it. Dealer makes a fair profit. 2 years later you offer to the same dealer the same coin. They decline.
Why decline? The dealer will just churn it, make more profit. Why would they NOT consider to buy it back? Why? They profited once on it, they must have considered it 'marketable'. Now they don't?
And if the dealer does not make an offer, even if the typical dealer way lo-ball, TRUST is lost. And the collector takes her/his business elseware.
Business 101,
first rate customer service,
establish trust with your clientele,
be respectful of and socialable with your customers
This is much more about bashing moderns and a modern dealer than it is about
any real difference between classics and moderns. Oh sure there is a difference
between high priced coins and low priced coins but this is mostly being ignored.
Like all such bashing threads those doing the bashing are inventing differences
between those who collect, study, and deal the coins and the coins themselves.
Some dealers do not want to buy back their coins. It's actually more like many
dealers don't want to buy back their coins and this generally does not apply to
dealers who move very high priced coins. Most dealers if offered a coin they know
they sold will "stretch" to buy it back. If they don't recognize it then they will of-
fer their typical price which often varies with how big a customer is selling the coin.
Those who don't believe this can convince themselves pretty quickly by offerring
a few coins around. People do need to sell coins to see what they are worth.
There are many reasons dealers might not want to buy a coin and those mentioned
hardly constitute a comprehensive list. One real difference with moderns for in-
stance is that valuable coins are available raw. This is really a strenght though,
no doubt, someone can spin it into a weakness. Like all coins, raw and slabbed mod-
erns are worth what you can get for them. If the dealer who sold them to you doesn't
want them back then just buck-up and sell them elsewhere.
It's a real shame that a good business has to be slammed just so moderns can be
bashed.
typos
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>CK, I can't speak for anyone else, but none of my comments had a thing to do with classics or moderns. If this thread is about moderns, that aspect sure has escaped me. >>
I should have been more specific perhaps. I believe it's bashing that's feeding it. Most
of the posters have not engaged in bashing.
<< <i>It has absolutely nothing to do with clads or moderns. It has to do with a major retail dealer, who sells single coins worth thousands of dollars each, and others of lesser value, who will not offer any buyback price at all on the coins he sells. That is what this whole thing is about. If he doesnt want to buyback coins for a lesser price, that is his business. But I think that no offer at all is bad business. Especially when coupled with fact of not even returning phone calls or emails about the subject. That is not good business in my opinion. I would at least let someone know by some type of communication that I would not offer them a buy back on one of the coins they had purchased from me. >>
Ah, but I distinctly remember it being said that they are interested in buying monsters.
It's the less expensive coins that few dealers have much interest in buying.
I dont think this is about moderns at all, I would have had the same problem had another dealer hyped liberty nickels, sold them for full retail and then not returned my phone calls.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Karl, Your analogies are silly. The coin isn't used or soiled. It's state hasn't changed from the time you bought it >>
no, but the state of the MARKET may have changed, & to assume that a dealer's going to buy a coin independent of market conditions is even sillier.
so to follow what your saying, let's say dealer-dave buys 10 1926-o dcam morgan dollars because they're rare. he sell's em to ryk. a hoard of 12,950 suddenly comes to market, so ryk wants to sell 'em back to dealer-dave.
is it FAIR to expect that dealer-dave's gonna want to make an offer on the coins?
i don't EVEN THINK so.
<< <i>What do you think the simplest explanation is for why a dealer wouldn't make an offer on a coin he sold you? >>
BINGO.
<< <i>Don't mind Karl. I think he gets a kick out of being contrarian. >>
sorry, but when i'm right, i'm right, & this time, i'm right. it is wrong to expect a dealer to make an offer on ANYTHING, regardless of if you bought it from him or not. totally irrelevant.
1 more thing, that the coins are "moderns" is COMLETELY IRRELEVANT.
K S
<< <i>CK,
I dont think this is about moderns at all, I would have had the same problem had another dealer hyped liberty nickels, sold them for full retail and then not returned my phone calls.
John >>
I can't defend anyone who won't return calls or apparently has poor customer service
but when was the last time a thread about a classic dealer's customer service got so
much attention? There was a thread last year about a dealer who didn't answer his
phone or e-mails and all it recieved was a handful of responses from people having the
same problem with the company. Granted this company is larger and better known,
though.
Perhaps I am making too much out of this. But it seems some very negative comments
have been made that went far beyond what most percieve as poor customer service.
This company has a reputation for honesty and delivering what they promise. They also
have a reputation for not being big buyers. They do apparently spend a lot on advertising.
I did not mean to embarass anyone or point fingers so much as I'm trying to understand
why this thread is so negative.
I think you should invite Rick to drop by here and read the comments and responses you've posted in this thread and the original that spawned it.
Russ, NCNE
siliconvalleycoins.com
Russ, NCNE
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
He doesnt return emails....whole point of the thread...
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
I know of the dealer in question and have received their newsletters and have seen their coins at a major show. I didn't buy because I could find what I wanted for a lower price. That is not an attack on this dealer. It is just how the market works. If you are a dealer and I don't buy from you it is beacuse I can find the same coin or item at the same quaility or grade from another dealer for a lower price.
FrederickCoinClub
<< <i>He doesnt return emails....whole point of the thread... >>
ok ....... so why is the thread entitled "Would you buy a coin from a specialist dealer that would not buy it back (at any price)?"
K S
-YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.
My Ebay!
The thread ensemble...this and the other...
siliconvalleycoins.com
Without having read the entire thread, first I have to make an assumption implied in the question which is: I must know from some third party, before I consider buying the coin, that the dealer won't buy his material back at any price.
So my answer would be NO BECAUSE I WOULD NOT BUY THE KIND OF COIN THAT A DEALER WOULD NOT WANT BACK BECAUSE THE ONLY KIND OF COIN A DEALER WOULD NOT WANT TO BUY BACK AT ANY PRICE IS A MODERN COIN. THE ONLY REASON HE WOULD NOT BUY IT BACK IS BECAUSE HE OR SHE DOESN'T WANT THE PUBLIC TO KNOW WHAT THE TRUE BUY/SELL SPREAD IS ON THESE TYPE OF COINS. Dealers want to keep the buy/sell spreads on modern coins confidential because THEY'RE HUGE.
(That's one of the main reasons why I don't recommend modern coins. There are enough modern coins out there to sink a battleship. But if you collect them because they're pretty and you know that they're worth a small fraction of what you pay for them, then go for it! Just don't kid yourself into believing that it's an investment. It's like collecting pretty stamps from the post office. Did you know you can buy stamps made in the 50's at a fraction of a dollar? That's right, you can buy a bucks worth of stamps made in the 50's for less than a dollar. Why? Because there's enough of them out there to sink a battleship and it's more trouble than it's worth to stick 6 or 7 stamps on an envelope than one 37 cent stamp......AND NO BODY WANTS THEM.)
There, that wasn't too painfully long, was it?
No, your answer was concise, to the point, and excellent.
(That was even shorter.)
Top pops?
Coins that have brought $69,000 at auction?
Coins of which there are 500 when considering type and grade that sell for less than $50?
(shill bidding and high reserves comes to mind first but.......I'll wait for your answer)
<< <i>".
(That's one of the main reasons why I don't recommend modern coins. There are enough modern coins out there to sink a battleship. But if you collect them because they're pretty and you know that they're worth a small fraction of what you pay for them, then go for it!
>>
...and I thought this was a modern bashing thread!!!
The spreads on many moderns are actually lower thanthe price on older coins. Mint and
proof sets usually are bought and sold for very small spreads. More and more of these are
being sold at retail but this can be as low as 150% of ask. BU single prices are usually not
much different from wholesale to retail. Yes, don't expect to get 20c for the MS-60 '75 penny
you bought for a quarter, but Ikes that wholesale at $140 per roll usually retail for less than
$10.
There are many billions of coins in circulation and there is no battleship that would float them.
But if you think you can sink a ship with MS-68 regular issue Ikes then you are not paying at-
tention or reading other peoples posts. Calling all moderns common may bring satisfaction to
some but it doesn't fill any holes in peoples' collections.
michael
just kidding of course, but seriously, very few collectors would actually collect 'em w/ the intent of putting together sets, ie. registry sets. so the market is very slim.
the problem isn't unique to ultra moderns, it applies, ironically, to series such as connecticuts. the top 3 coins in the condition census are worth 4 or 5 digits, then there's an enormous drop-off for anything lesser. that's becuase all 3 collectors of condition census connecticuts live w/in 2 miles of each other in trenton, new jersey.
K S
So how about some REAL examples of YOUR buy/sell (bid/ask) spreads on a few coins
Oh, that's right, modern dealers don't publish buy/sell (bid/ask) spreads - DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Heck, most don't even post their sell prices here on the boards for hope of getting someone to offer a ridiculously high price. "PM's ONLY"
He had the nicest coins going, but at full retail or better. I kept 90% of what he used to send me on approval.
He just kind of disappeared after a divorce.
I loved that man!
The kind you are talking about can suck eggs!
Why? Because I'm a hardcore collector, not a speculator or investor so I gives less than a damn if anybody else would buy it or not.
<< <i><STRONG>"The spreads on many moderns are actually lower than the price on older coins."
</STRONG>So how about some REAL examples of YOUR buy/sell (bid/ask) spreads on a few coins
Oh, that's right, modern dealers don't publish buy/sell (bid/ask) spreads - DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Heck, most don't even post their sell prices here on the boards for hope of getting someone to offer a ridiculously high price. <STRONG>"PM's ONLY"</STRONG>
You can find the real wholesale prices in the classified sections of Coin World or
any of the major papers. You can usually do 10 to 30% better than these prices
if you are patient and shop around a little. Some of the highest buyers don't
advertise in these venues but sometimes will print an ad suggesting you write.
Collectors do need to sell some coins on occasion to learn what the coins' true
values are. Monster moderns are highly sought by all the specialist dealers and
by many serious collectors. Like other higher priced coins the spreads are not
as great as they are for lower priced coins.
I am a collector/ promoter/ investor in moderns and do not personally deal in
them.
I do intend to start dealing coins in the future but
prices are far too low at the current time to make this worthwhile.
I like that statement---me too!!!!
<< <i>the problem w/ ultra moderns is that there's only about 2 people collecting 'em seriously in the entire country, & both of 'em live in n. dakota.
just kidding of course, but seriously, very few collectors would actually collect 'em w/ the intent of putting together sets, ie. registry sets. so the market is very slim.
the problem isn't unique to ultra moderns, it applies, ironically, to series such as connecticuts. the top 3 coins in the condition census are worth 4 or 5 digits, then there's an enormous drop-off for anything lesser. that's becuase all 3 collectors of condition census connecticuts live w/in 2 miles of each other in trenton, new jersey.
K S >>
I agree 100%.
<< What do you think the simplest explanation is for why a dealer wouldn't make an offer on a coin he sold you? >>
> BINGO.
Karl,
Um, bingo isn't an answer. Do you mean to say the dealer won't come up with an offer because he's busy playing bingo.
Speak plainly man. Answer the question.
You think that a hoard of 12,950 coins just like RYK's have come on the market and that's why the dealer wouldn't make an
offer?
Don't just declare that you're right, explain yourself.
-KHayse
Sometimes you have to read between the lines.
Great answers. I have learned a lot about the coin market here.