86 topps

ldferg · October 28, 2004 11:56AM

i have a few stars up this week in psa 9's if interested.

thanks. 86 topps

MRyanF · October 28, 2004 12:55PM

A tough set to be sure. I see the Ryan is already picking up some bids.

jimtb · October 29, 2004 12:02AM

I still think this could be the sleeper set of the 80's.

mcastaldi · October 29, 2004 4:07AM

jimtb> "Sleeper" in what sense? Hidden value? Difficulty?

Mike

downgoesfrazier · October 29, 2004 10:59AM

Well, I personally fell asleep right in the middle of a rack box a few months back. I really like the set, however.

dgf

jimtb · October 29, 2004 9:49PM

Hi Mike,
I think it's a sleeper in terms of collectibility. It is one of those years loaded with HOFers and it has the black border challenge of the 1971's. Looking at the 80's baseball sets, 89 UD and 84 Donruss are obviously king, but I think this one has potential as well.

jimtb · October 29, 2004 9:50PM

DGF,
Hope you didn't drool on any cards!

downgoesfrazier · October 29, 2004 10:23PM

I think I drooled on Ozzie Guillen and Alan Ashby if memory serves. That however was BEFORE falling asleep. Those cards are really pretty when they're nice and they are not real easy, either.

dgf

jackstraw · October 29, 2004 11:24PM

do you still have them? if not that will leave us 7" short of being able to wrap the earth for a 12th time

jimtb · October 30, 2004 3:42AM

Good point jackstraw, there are tons of these cards, however a lot of them are down right ugly. Miscuts, tilts, chipped black, etc. You would have to break a lot of boxes to build a quality set. The rest can be used to start fires with or something...

ajw · October 30, 2004 5:32AM

A while back someone was telling their tale of opening case after case of this set looking for high grade cards. It was really interesting, and I enjoyed the stories. I was left, however, with the image of someone sitting in their living room, opening wax pack after rack pack, tossing 97% of the cards over their shoulder into an ever growing messy pile behind them. Every 15 packs or so they'd pull out a single card that they thought might be PSA 9 worthy.

Man...I'm not sure I could handle that.

downgoesfrazier · October 30, 2004 12:58PM

ajw,
That was me. I just love high-end MINT cards regardless of the year. I didn't chuck 'em over my shoulder though. I actually give a few hundred to my kids to play with and just box the rest of what doesn't make my set. I'm three 6-Box rack cases and three 3-box rack cases into my set and I'm roughly 1/2 way home. 27 Rack boxes and I'm only 1/2 way there...egads!

I'm doing the same thing with 88's. The rack has been pretty solid, the wax has been OK. The vending is freak-show terrible! I broke a vending case of 88 topps and after 3 500-ct. boxes added exactly four cards to my set! Four. Mamma-Mia!!! When I'm done, I'll have 86,87,88 topps in actual Gem Mint condition with every card dead-focused, brilliant color, pristine surfaces, centering within 5% both ways, and corners that children shouldn't handle and I am enjoying it more than you'll know.

I came to the realization that NM & NM/MT vintage sets just were not strong enough for me condition-wise. I would look at a '53 PSA 8 of Gus Zernial and say, "too bad about that centering" or "Too bad about this or that". There just are not enough perfect examples of those cards to satiate me. Even if there were, I could never afford all of them. I guess I value condition of the cards and the images themselves more than the players depicted. I can get all pumped up over an unusually colorful, well-focused, razor sharp cherry of Tom Pagnozzi and it costs me pennies. I'm enjoying the hobby like I did as a kid. What's that worth in the SMR???

dgf

RayBShotz · October 30, 2004 11:34PM

One of the really annoying irregularities in 86' Topps product is the faded or washed out look of a lot of the cards. The black looks grayed and the other colors do not stack up either.
I have an unopened vending case that I am afraid to break but have thought about hand collating a high end set myself.
They are certainly unique.
RayBShotz

estang · October 31, 2004 9:24AM

DGF,

Are you sending the 86 87 88 cards in for grading or just keeping raw? If keeping them raw, how do you store them? Ideally, how would you like to store them?

I believe Ultra-Pro came out with some new hard case holder that has magnets that looks like a graded card holder.

Fun to read your enjoyment on your collecting and busting cases of new product. I've thought about wanting to get the Topps All-Star cards from 82 onward in Mint 96/9 or Gem 98/10 as well as getting Topps football like that.

downgoesfrazier · October 31, 2004 10:47AM

estang,
I will keep the cards in their un-slabbed glory. I use CS1's and simply store them in plastic card-sized drwers that I purchase at "The Container Store". My dupes are kept in large vault-like boxes, also in CS1's. For the cards not worthy of "enshrinement" in the CS1's, they get 5K'd until I decide on a use for them besides saying "I've got tons of those"

The only reason I'll grade anything again would be either to sell it or to enjoy the sport of it. There is some entertainment value in waiting for an invoice, of course. PSA just doesn't grade consistently enough or me. I'll be the end user if a card looks good to me, but that's about it. Here's why:

The hobby's finest 1977 Topps Marty Perez
It looks like a friggin' tiffany! The corners COULD NOT be sharper. NOTHING under 10x. The reverse is centered 52/48 or better both ways.

Now, check out DSL's garbage that PSA deemed a freaking 10 that's on eBay right now. My card gets a 9 and that load of trash that is toned and bleeding like a head wound gets a 10...yeah, that's just great. To add insult to injury, PSA has graded to date TWO copies a 10 of this card and mine still resides in a 9 holder earning less GPA than another set registrant...not to mention the added monetary claims.

DSL's ...ehem...clear throat..."10"...

This example is far from an isolated mistake. This is the rule rather than the exception with 10's. This is the major complaint I've had with PSA from the start. For many collectors it doesn't matter as they don't know better, for a collector like myself it is beyond irritating.

dgf

downgoesfrazier · October 31, 2004 10:50AM

Having link trouble with DSL's "Gem" from above. Sorry. Just check eBay under 1977 PSA 10 and look at the NM/MT "10" of Marty Perez.

mudflap02 · October 31, 2004 11:15AM

DSL's

Yours

downgoesfrazier · October 31, 2004 11:21AM

Thanks man!

jimtb · October 31, 2004 10:49PM

DGF, That is a beautiful scan of that Perez card! What kind of scanner are you using?

CON40 · October 31, 2004 11:40PM

dgf;

I think you are jumping to a quick conclusion on DSL's card... not to say it's perfect, but you can;t tell from that scan he has up... all his scans are notorious for being dark with no shadow details... case in point: I got my 1980 PSA 10 Ryan from DSL and the card was trashed on these boards prior to the auction's end (dark card, toned stock, diamond cut)... when I got the card I couldn't believe how nice it was (I was upgrading my PA 9)... beautiful white borders with deep deep deep deep colors with not a single print flaw... truly a PSA 10. In fact, duncan300 (packcollector) also reviewed tha card for me and agrred. Plus, I have another 1980 Topps PSA 10 of Don Baylor with the Angels and the Ryan had superior color by a longshot.

My feeling is that PSA gives 10s to cards that have superior ink holdout and density without flaws. If the ink is a little soft, PSA does not give the 10. In the two Perez examples, DSKL's appears to have deeper, richer color tones than your PSA 9. That may be the just the edge that cards has to earn the PSA 10 grade (although your copy looks tremendous too).

ROCKDJRW · November 1, 2004 12:44AM

I love this set but I don't think I would be bold enough to submit some on my own. I have two nines from this set Harold Baines and Ozzie Guillen. The Baines I got for around a grading fee and the Guillen for slightly more.

downgoesfrazier · November 1, 2004 2:48AM

con40,
I will bet you 10 times the hammer price that the card has registration problems, chipping and grainy ink. Further, I will bet you an organ from my body that my card is stronger in every gradeable context. There is no conclusion jumping here. The card blows and DSL got a gift...again. To deepen the wound that mine is terribly undergraded. I won an awful Bowa 10 from them from the same vending run. That's just super about your Ryan, but I REALLY know the animal I'm dealing with here. Funny thing is I bought the Bowa unseen taking a gamble that it would upgrade the Bowa 10 I bought from 4-sharp unseen. Both cards suck. My 9 is till far and away the nicest. I've won nice cards from DSL in the past and don't fault them at all. The fact is the card (Marty Perez) has yellow ink bleeding from the team template and the registration is off beyond what's reasonable.

My card was scanned with a regular hp scanjet 3970. It's the CARD that is THAT nice. It practically glows in the dark. I'm not sure what the grader was doing on that one or even these...

One razor-sharp Albert

...or

A Terrific Tom...

...or

Big Bad John...

You can nit-pick and say "The Oliver has a 1/116 of an inch, pin-tip sized dot on his sleeve" or Seaver has a 1/100 cm micro-chip just about 1/2 inch from the LL corner" or "Mayberry must smell bad", but at some point common sense just has to reign. Better copies of these cards are likely to never exist.

Here's the Schmidt...

Not a sheet-cut...like one of the 10's circulating currently

I've just gotten fed up, and my card-ego is getting the best of me. I like PSA and the forums and for the most part, graded cards. But, the registry is a competitive arena and PSA (nor anybody else for that matter) can't possibly stay consistent enough to level the playing field. The idea was great, but the system is really flawed when one team's baskets are worth three points and another's are worth only two...and they have the harder shot if you follow this analogy. I'm not saying anything ground-breaking here. Most advanced collectors know this and accept it as part of the "game", I just hate how PSA's standards have fallen toward the toilet of late.
The 10's are so plentiful due to relaxed standards that they've woven a web for themselves. They have devalued 9's to the point where a large player like Roger (4-sharp) can only get his money's worth on a 6000 card sub. by pulling 4000 10's--further worsening the situation. If PSA grades his cards on the same standards as CON40's they'll likely not see another order that size. Roger doesn't want to lose $3 per 9 he gets back. He makes his money on his 10's and that's what keeps him in business. PSA and Roger are not stupid. They both understand the equation. The stupidity is all ours. I'm not saying that PSA takes a NM card and slabs it a 10. I'm saying they take Rogers nice cards (high-end 8's and average 9's) and assign 10's where they feel they can justify it at buyback time.
These are just cold, hard facts. Those who wish to acknowledge it and admit to themselves that the system isn't perfect but it's the best we've got I don't begrudge you a bit. Just please, don't insult me with comments like "You may be jumping to conclusions...", etc. If you think that DSL's card is as nice as mine, buy it, prove it's nicer and tell me where to send the check.

dgf

CON40 · November 1, 2004 4:32AM

These are just cold, hard facts. Those who wish to acknowledge it and admit to themselves that the system isn't perfect but it's the best we've got I don't begrudge you a bit. Just please, don't insult me with comments like "You may be jumping to conclusions...", etc. If you think that DSL's card is as nice as mine, buy it, prove it's nicer and tell me where to send the check.

dgf;

No insult intended, but I am surprised at your quick summation of this card based on that shîtty scan. You have one of the most particular sets of eye out there at studying the nuances of cards -- micro-chipping, ink density, stock flaws, non-perpendicular cuts -- and none of these are visible in DSL's scan because it is so poor. The card may be better than you want to believe.

I do agree that it seems at times that DSL, ShoelessJoe, 4SC, and the like seem to get the nods, but I'm sure they get the screws too. We just don't see their undergraded 8s on eBay because these guys can't afford/be bothered to list them.

In the big picture, we have to put this hobby and service into context. If Morningstar and S&P can't rate all stocks accurately, how on earth do we realistically expect that a self-annointed grading company can grade every card right.

downgoesfrazier · November 1, 2004 5:14AM

CON40,
The scan is shtty because the card is shtty. You can see that it is toned immediately (again, I got sucked in on the Bowa--same run). You can see the plates are out of alignment (yellows), hence the bleed. The card may be a MINT copy by PSA standards...today or gem mint...tomorrow...or NM/MT on thursday...or even "not holdered/Did not meet minimum size requirement" on Friday. They are all over the place. My offer still stands. The card blows. BTW, wouldn't you think DSL could afford a better scanner by now??? Perhaps they like the fact that you can't see their cards too well. Food for thought.

dgf

downgoesfrazier · November 1, 2004 5:21AM

Con40,
This is absolutely NOTHING personally directed toward you. I hope you know that. I also understand and appreciate your direction in your response. My complaints of PSA have always centered around gem mint 10's. They are the most erratically assigned grades and the most expensive. That combination is a lightning rod for criticism when dealing with meticulous submitters. It may also be because that is what I strive for in my set-building--perfection--and my standards are higher than PSA's. Who knows? I deserved a 10 on every card I linked above as well as aprox. 180 others that are in my set, but when you submit too much of a good thing, they hit the brakes. It's a shame.
Again, I appreciate your opinion although I do not agree with it. I always enjoy reading what you have to say...I especially like how you got around the "shtty"

dgf

CON40 · November 1, 2004 5:22AM

dgf;
You may be right, but there's only one way to find out... I bid on the card... if I get it, I'll post a nice hi-res scan and if you like it better than your PSA 9, you can buy it off me for 10X what I pay.

And I agree on DSL scanner... "dilutes" some good cards and "enhances" some crappy cards.

jimtb · November 1, 2004 5:31AM

I'm looking forward to the results. I have appreciated the comments on the printing quality of the cards. I have at leat two PSA 10 Trammells that are downright ugly cards from an eye appeal standpoint. A 10 is described as:

"GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint.

A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse. "

Sharp focus and appeal of the card are specifically mentioned. Maybe this too much of an "eye of the beholder" issue?
Jim

downgoesfrazier · November 1, 2004 6:02AM

Dude,
Seriously, don't blow your money! I'll enjoy the spectacle, but now I feel bad. I don't want you wasting money because of my big 'ol mouth! If YOU really want to buy it and play our game, I'm in...just re-assure me you won't be PO'd when you have to pay for that thing!

jimtb,
You may be right about the eye of the beholder, but certain things are empirical...my card cannot be improved upon yet resides in a 9 holder.
I'd have it reviewed if I felt it would be looked at by someone who knows what they're doing, but that means I have to have close to 200 cards reviewed.

All,
Keep in mind that I have cracked 16 8's for re-submission and the results have been startling...
6 PSA 10's (That's more than 1/3 for those of you scoring at home)
8 PSA 9's
2 PSA 8's (1 later re-sub'd to a 9 and sold for 62 bucks on eBay--I couldn't have GIVEN the 8 away!)

dgf

CON40 · November 1, 2004 6:04AM

Seriously, don't blow your money! I'll enjoy the spectacle, but now I feel bad. I don't want you wasting money because of my big 'ol mouth! If YOU really want to buy it and play our game, I'm in...just re-assure me you won't be PO'd when you have to pay for that thing!

LOL! No sweat... I consider the cost of materials to conduct an experiment!

downgoesfrazier · November 1, 2004 6:34AM

CON40,
You're all right. I'll owe you one. You are truly a good sport!

dgf

ajw · November 1, 2004 8:10AM

I can't seem to see DGF's example of the card. Can someone try posting it again? I'd love to see them side by side.

FYI, this is a great thread...I really enjoy absorbing some of the amazing expertise the board members have in their various sets.

When I first looked at the ebay card it looked pretty darn good to me. Then DGF said the yellow wasn't aligned properly, and I said "huh, he's right." DGF, if you have the time or interest, I'd love to see examples of what other problems can crop up in your beloved 1977 set. I'll probably never collect the set, but I love learning from someone that knows the set better than anyone at Topps or PSA ever will.

Wabittwax · November 1, 2004 9:22AM

DGF, what has been your PSA 10's per rack box ratio for 1986 Topps? I've opened 3 rack box so far and I'm not sure if I even have one 10.

mudflap02 · November 1, 2004 9:35AM

I've got 2 86 racks I think I'm gonna bust in the next few days. Might pull a couple cherry cards - I seem to remember some great ones from the first couple of boxes, but I was looking for Ryans (which all sucked). I'm pretty sure I fed a few 86T's to my ladyfriend's dog. He graded them delicious.

GATOR5 · November 1, 2004 10:03AM

Dgf,

What up bud, what happened to our cubbies?

Anyhow back to the topic of 86's. They are sweet imo but having to time to crack them becomes the hassle. It was fun at first as myself and dgf were going crazy in the hotel room. Then bringing the project home with 36 rack boxes I can say I'm left with 4 to go in over 6 months. If anyone is interested in highend 9's in stars and commons lmk. I have quite a stack of dups.

Phil pick up the phone give me a shout.

Matt

ldferg · November 1, 2004 10:22AM

for a ratio: i purchased a 6-box rack case and have netted the following 10's (all have been sold on ebay except for the murphy and winfield):

mattingly - 1 pop is 1
clemens - 5 pop is 7
rose - 0
ryan - 0 (some of these looked flawless but 9 was the highest received)
ripken - 0
henderson - 0
winfield - 1
murphy - 1
molitor - 2 pop is 2
seaver - 1 pop is 1
boggs - 0 (always had some type of edge damage)
gwynn - 0
schmidt - 0 (o/c)
carlton - 0 (o/c)
brett - 0 (always had some type of edge damage)

i've had several 9's and 8's as well (with some 8's looking better than the 9's). i have not resubmitted any and do not plan to. again, i have only submitted stars and semi-stars. i'm sure there are other 10's just waiting to be sent, but i have a hard time sending in a common to be graded when i'm not compiling a set.

ajw · November 1, 2004 10:23AM

<< <i>If anyone is interested in highend 9's in stars and commons lmk. I have quite a stack of dups.

Matt >>

Matt, I assume the "highend 9's" are graded, right? I might be interested in a high end 9 raw set, if you could put one together for a decent price.

AJW.

Virtualizard · November 1, 2004 10:45AM

Phil (and others),

These threads are the only thing that keeps me coming back here to wade through all of the garbage that is posted. Thanks for a great, informative thread.

<< <i>Good point jackstraw, there are tons of these cards, however a lot of them are down right ugly. Miscuts, tilts, chipped black, etc. You would have to break a lot of boxes to build a quality set. The rest can be used to start fires with or something... >>

Funny you should mention fires and '86 Topps cards in the same sentence.

I had the unfortunate experience of being flooded during Hurricane Jeanne and lost about 30-50,000 raw cards. Two weeks ago, I decided to burn a large pile of debris in my backyard, and found a 5,000 count box of '86 Topps that had been under water when my house was flooded. I decided to toss them on the fire. I just happened to have a camera with me!

Enjoy!

Oh yeah, for some reason I have enjoyed burning '86 Topps cards for a while now ... here is a tribute to Red Sox fans!

JEB.

ldferg · November 1, 2004 12:48PM

LOL...great job lizard. are you the one that had the "charred" buckner on ebay not too long ago??? LOL

downgoesfrazier · November 1, 2004 1:08PM

Wax,
I haven't graded them but I would say you can expect anywhere from zero to 10 truly perfect examples from a 3-box. PSA, of course, could see it differently. They would--just a guess, see closer to 20-30 that they would grade a 10. They're gorgeous cards when they're nice. The color can be bold and they have a nice smooth, even texture. The aqua's, oranges and reds are deep and vibrant and the borders, when centered, frame nicely. The black ranges from charcoal and spotty to jet black. It's the jets that turn my crank. I about fell out of my chair when I got a look at the good stuff. I just love fresh, crisp, mint cards regardless of age!
JEB,
Those were great photos and kind words. Thank you. Again, my best you and yours as you certainly have had a rough go of late. Keep your sense of humor. It has to be the only way through what you and thousands of others were dealt this late summer.

dgf

Gator, where's the number!!! Email me!!!

mudflap02 · November 1, 2004 2:21PM

dgf -

To go along with your complaint, yeah, it pisses all of us off when we see clearly inferior cards in holders with higher numbers. Example:

vs.

Edited to add new scan. Yeah, it sucks - mine is a 7 with much better centering, decent edges, and much better eye appeal. I think it's a question now of how much stuff like this is a collector willing to take before they ultimately decide that the best judge of a card's quality and authenticity is their own. I'm not at that point yet, and I still rely on PSA to tell me what's good and what's crap. Honestly, 95% of the time I can't tell the difference between a 9 and a 10 other than the money it costs me, and I know I'm not alone.

maxXposure · November 1, 2004 2:35PM

this is indeed a great thread.

mudflap02 · November 1, 2004 3:17PM

You're poison for threads.

goodriddance189 · November 1, 2004 3:25PM

does anyone have a Sandberg 9? i would pay good money for one

jimtb · November 1, 2004 10:16PM

Virtualizard,
We survived Charlie, Frances and Jeane (I'm in Orlando) We just got the roof replaced last week. The pool screen could be months. We lost 13 trees - but no major house damage. Sorry to hear about the flood damage.

It's hard to see any cards destroyed; even if their soggy, moldy 86 Topps! So did you burning the Buckner card break the curse?

downgoesfrazier · November 2, 2004 1:44AM

...86 Sandberg? I'll check for a duplicate. I did pull one gorgeous copy with 58/42 TB. There must be a twin of that in one of the next couple of rack boxes. Currently the 58/42 copy is my "set card". Actually, Ryno isn't a slam-dunk on that issue. One of the tougher stars. I'll keep it in mind and revive the thread if we get lucky.

dgf

goodriddance189 · November 2, 2004 7:25AM

DGF,

if you can get a 9 on a Sandberg i'll buy it for $20-$25

downgoesfrazier · November 2, 2004 7:59AM

If I pull a MINT copy, I'll just send it to you. You can do with it what you like. I'll make an effort on it.

dgf

Virtualizard · November 2, 2004 8:52AM

<< <i>LOL...great job lizard. are you the one that had the "charred" buckner on ebay not too long ago??? LOL >>

ldferg, yes that was me and this is the actual card!

<< <i>Virtualizard,
We survived Charlie, Frances and Jeane (I'm in Orlando) We just got the roof replaced last week. The pool screen could be months. We lost 13 trees - but no major house damage. Sorry to hear about the flood damage.

It's hard to see any cards destroyed; even if their soggy, moldy 86 Topps! So did you burning the Buckner card break the curse? >>

Jim,

I'm happy to hear that you're recovering from the hurricane effects. This was a tough summer for much of the state.

As for the curse: Sure, I'll take credit for lifting it by burning the Buckner card!

If any of you Red Sox fans would like to thank me, please paypal large sums of money to: jeb@virtualizard.com !

Thanks. Glad I could help. Now, how much will you Buffalo Bills fans pay me to burn some of my football cards?

JEB.

86 topps

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