AT or NT what makes one AT and the other NT???

INXS

Among toher things chemicals and heat are obviouslty used to artificially tone coins. If a coin is put into a storage holder, a slab, flip, manilla envelope and it tones is this considered AT? If so how does one tell? I would think that there are no NT coins at all since one way or another something has toned the coins, moisture, light, chemical reactions...etc.

Is a coin AT if it is intentionally subjected to a chemical or heat..etc solely to tone that coin and a coin that tones in its holder where the intention was not to tone that coin considered NT??

Inxs

mr1931S

My thinking about NT v AT is that if the coin is deliberately processed with the intent of its bringing bigger bucks to the owner because of its colors, AT all the way.

My 1880 S copper-toned dollar is a classic example of NT outside of a mint bag or roll. The coin, in its carboard "Tidy bowl" holder resided in a regular letter envelope for many years. Both sides were evenly exposed to the paper of the envelope. There are a few fingerprints from the little old lady who owned this coin. I had it holdered by ICG, not for the toning, but to preserve it. I'm thinking it will look 100 years from now the same as it looks today. It's a mere MS 62 in grade. A dealer once offered me $100 for this coin even though it wasn't in the ICG holder at the time. I paid the little old lady $15 for this coin, as I recall, back in the mid '80's.

mr1931S

Take some brilliant, common date silver dollars and put in a mint bag. Make sure there is some moisture present and wait an unspecific length of time. Open the bag and see what you've got.

An example of AT activity all the way.

dorkkarl

hey inxs, there's a simple litmus test. 1st of all, remember that a coin's natural environment is circulation. so ask yourself this: is the toning a result of simple circulation? if so, then it's natural toning.

all other NON-natural environments, including flame-throwers, coin albums, baby vomit, paper envelopes, etc etc, are artificial, & induce artificial toning..

it really is that simple.

maybe you were really wanting to ask about "market acceptable toning"?

K S

ziggy29

<< <i>all other NON-natural environments, including flame-throwers, coin albums, baby vomit, paper envelopes, etc etc, are artificial, & induce artificial toning.. >>

Come to think of it, I have seen a few coins that look like a baby puked all over them...

joeyuk

Perhaps accelerated toning would be a better word then artifical.

mr1931S

"all other NON-natural (other than circulation) environments, including flame-throwers, coin albums, baby vomit, paper envelopes, etc etc, are artificial, & induce artificial toning.."

You are begging the question, dorkkarl. I could, but choose not to, make a convincing but fallacious argument that there is no such thing as artificial, its all natural.

How can a coin album not be a "natural" environment for a collectible coin? What is a natural place for one's collection?

INXS

I am getting the idea that coin toning is not natural no matter where the coin is stored. I have read on this forum where toning occurred in a safety deposit box, in an album, in a slab, in a flip, wraped in an envelope or just laying loose in a cardboad box.

What I am trying to determine is when a coin is considered AT by the coin world and when the coin world agrees that it is natural toning. I think Joeyuk hit it right on the head instead of calling it artificial toning it should be called accelerated toning.

Inxs

mr1931S

A Premise:

A natural place of storage always produces natural toning.

Agree or disagree?

ss350camaro

I think the answer to the question should be:

"How long did it take to tone that way"?

mr1931S

"How long did it take to tone that way"?

It took about 20 years for my uncirculated 1880 S dollar to assume its lovely copper toning.

joeyuk

I "borrowed" the term accelerated toning from a thread I read
recently by DMWJR. I felt it summed it up nicely.

I think toned coins are pretty but as far as value I am not sure
if it should raise or lower the value. It seems "market acceptable"
determines if it is at or nt. If it looks good enough it is genuine
toning. I'm glad counterfeits are not held to this same standard.


After reading a thread on toning I put a white peace dollar in a
zip lock bag with some diced raw onions. Boy the pretty colors.
Nice fading of one color to another. Maybe I'll put it in a 2X2 and
let my estate sell it.

mr1931S

"After reading a thread on toning I put a white peace dollar in a zip lock bag with some diced raw onions. Boy the pretty colors."

What are the colors produced by the onion pieces? White or yellow onion?

joeyuk

The colors in order of dominance are purple, blue and gold. I
don't recall the type of onion. Sulfur content in the onion is what
I believe caused it.

pics added

joeyuk

pics added

magikbilly

Hi All,
well, NT seems to be when the other guy owns it.....

But, I will say that, IMHO, storing coins in any environment that you know will cause a change in the appearance of your collectibles is not good stewardship in the long haul as collectors.

<<How can a coin album not be a "natural" environment for a collectible coin? What is a natural place for one's collection?>> - MR1874

Well, I'd say that's when you know the album will change the appearance of the coin from when you obtained the coin. The best storage place is not necessarily going to fit arbitrary definitions of "natural".

Best,
Billy

dorkkarl

<< <i>A Premise:

A natural place of storage always produces natural toning.

Agree or disagree? >>

almost agree, not a natural place of "storage", but really a natural place of "existence", ie. where does the coin "belong"? most of the time, the answer is "circulation".

for 19th century proofs, the answer might be "in tissue paper", so the resulting toning be natural.

it is not natural for a 1932-d quarter to be in tissue paper, hence such a coin, no matter how stunning & beautiful, is ARTIFICIALLY toned, even though it might be extremely desirable & MARKET ACCPETABLE.

but your on the right track. see my earlier post

K S

morgannut2

A "natural place" for every coin I get is instinctively a coin album, envelope or sleave. A "natural place" for every coin my wife gets is circulation at the nearest store!

Hadleydog

almost agree, not a natural place of "storage", but really a natural place of "existence", ie. where does the coin "belong"? most of the time, the answer is "circulation".
Ah, but dorkarl, the natural place of existence (at least for morgan dollars) was inside the mint bags! The mint produced quantities far greater than needed, and the excess were stored by the mint, in mint bags, within the mint! After about 60 years, beautifully toned pieces. Your not gonna try and tell me the US Mint was the first coin Dr?
To me, artificial toning is the purposeful acceleration of the toning process. I think that's about as simple an explanation as I can give.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Ah, but dorkarl, the natural place of existence (at least for morgan dollars) was inside the mint bags! >>

correct, which is why mint-bag toning on morgans is always NATURAL toning.

K S

morgannut2

All AT coins are ones where the surface has been intentionally altered over a short period of time, usually with chemicals other than gaseous H 2 S, and at temperatures other than ambient room conditions.. AT coins are created with the "INTENT TO DECIEVE" a potential buyer; except the just cited "union-toned Peace dollar" which, unless sold as NT, is properly called an experiment. Although the properties of silver/copper sulfide salts formed by gaseous fluid flow over metals at ambient room temp. has been well known since the 19th Century, no modern grading services apparently have a desire to perform the rudementary high school level chemical/optical tests to determine a coin's surface authenticity. Hence all TPG graded coins must be viewed with the same level of doubt as a "guaranteed certified" used car, but without any 30 day or better warrenty.

joeyuk

Yes it was reading threads on toning and seeing prices realized for "monster" toning
that made me wonder what someone who does not know what they are doing could
accomplish. By coincidence my 12 year old is studying chemical/physical changes in
school and his science teacher is looking forward to having the coin passed around.
I am sending a nice white Morgan in with it to compare. Who knows maybe the kids
will walk away with " old money is cool".

joemoris

I thank the posters on this thread. Many critical points that a TOTAL NOOB collector, like myself, can use. Thanks for the info guys&gals! I just got a new peace nickel from Liquor store-thats was green and magenta. I saw the clerk open the bank-roll to make my change. The other nickels were plain. This would have to be NT I think..... But I dont know jack $%^*