Thinking of starting a 77 topps baseball set

theplasticman

Any advice? My reason for choosing is that its my birth year and I had considered doing the 78 set set but like the 77 design better.

Im also looking for suggestions on how to approach this one and any of the intricacies of the issue. Thanks in advance.

estang

This is from the foremost collector of this set. Down Goes Frazier

COLLECTING THE 1977 TOPPS SET:

This set is the perfect transition set from the early 70’s-- where the 60’s just couldn’t let go-- and the height of the Saturday Night Fever disco era. The Yankees were returning to prominence just as the Big Red Machine was saying goodbye and AM “hits” radio was on its way out, too. Reggie became the “straw that stirs the drink” (Card # 10), and the “Bronx Zoo” was officially open for business. The game placed an American league representative north of the border and gave Seattle its rightful shot at supporting a major-league franchise. The Dodgers, Phillies, Royals and Yankees seemed to have a permanent ticket for October baseball...

For me, 1977 was the year I was born into baseball and collecting cards. I continue making my living in the sport today, but my feelings have changed quite a bit. In 1977 salaries had begun to-- but had not yet distanced themselves from the average American as they do now. The game offered me a real interest and introduced me to sports heroes. The sight of those boxes of wax packs in the candy aisle at Mark Drugs (the store no longer exists) made my heart race and the treasures that lurked within those wrappers are one pleasure I will take from the baseball cradle to the grave. The afternoons of shopping with my grandmother and spending my chore money ($2 bought eight packs with some pocket-change) are the greatest memories I have of a wonderful childhood that was all too short.

When I moved into my teens I began collecting cards from 1958 and earlier. I had an appetite for historical significance particularly when that history pertained to baseball. I truly believed that when the Dodgers left Brooklyn and the Giants moved west as well, that was the beginning of the end of the ideal world I envisioned must have existed; a sort of utopia. Vintage cardboard and the players depicted on it seemed a natural progression for a baseball junkie and I jumped in with both feet. I came within three-dozen 52’s of completing as well as completing sets of 53-57. When third-party authentication became popular in the mid-late 90’s I had the key cards graded and in large part, financed my run at 1977 in high grade.

When my first son was born, I lost my interest in collecting players I never saw play. Suddenly Steve Garvey was more important to me than Gil Hodges. Johnny Bench pushed Campanella and Berra to second and third strings respectively and the chase was on. It was 77’s or bust and anything I had to sell from earlier years was fair game. I have since had three more children and have changed the set name from “Montgomery Collection” to “Apostle Collection”. The first of many things my Monty will have to learn to share...

What will follow is everything (actually more than any reasonable person) that anyone would want to know about collecting the 1977 topps baseball set. It has been broken down into categories that most collectors in this forum would be familiar with. The read is lengthy but a must for anyone looking to build this beast


1977 TOPPS BASEBALL SET

Critical Overview & General collecting traits: When complete, this set contains 660 cards. The set was released in one series. The packs hit the shelves of stores in January 1977 and could still be found into the early stages of the football season the next fall. Sub-sets include, “League Leaders” (cards 1-8), “Record Breakers” (cards 231-234), Postseason specials (cards 275,276, & 411-413) , “Turn Back The Clock” (cards 433-437), “Big League Brothers” (Cards 631-634), and a multitude of extremely unattractive Rookie cards featuring four microscopic images of, among others, Andre Dawson, Jack Clark, Dennis Martinez, and Dale Murphy. Jim Gantner, Bump Wills, Mike Krukow and Lee Mazzilli are among other notables who became big-league regulars. Also on the rookie card checklist for 1977 would be Gary Templeton (the first big-leaguer to achieve 100 hits from each side of the plate in the same season), Bruce Sutter, and “The Bird” Mark Fidrych. The Fidrych card is among the sets most popular and remains somewhat elusive in truly high-grade. The 1977 Topps baseball set is rich in regional stars and HOF’ers who are just getting started as well as those just hitting their collective strides; Jim Rice, Dennis Eckersley, George Brett, Dave Parker, Steve Garvey, Robin Yount, Fred Lynn, Carlton Fisk, Rich Gossage, Mike Schmidt, Thurman Munson; just to name a select few. The typical 70’s roll-call of HOF’ers resides here, too; Seaver, Jax, Catfish, Rose, Bench, Morgan, Yaz, Carlton, Palmer, etc.

The set combines tasteful portraits with some fairly unique action shots. Willie Randolph sliding into Carlton Fisk (641) and the Reds clinching their second straight World Championship (413), and Chris Chambliss hitting his walk-off, pennant-clinching homer (275) come to mind among others. The usual mid-70’s air-brushed cards are plentiful enough to keep us chuckling and scratching our collective heads. The design is an uncluttered one with bold colors. While unopened product from this year is scarce and pricey, these remain quite plentiful in mid-grade in binders at shows and the occasional vending box can be had in the $375 neighborhood. Wax boxes were trading in the 8-900 range just eighteen months ago and are now 7-800 each.

GRADING 1977 TOPPS BASEBALL:

From the standpoint of third-party grading, there are many nuances that one should look for from both the aesthetics of the card as well as the technical aspects of the stock and production process.

STOCK: Soft and “mushy” for the most part. For those unfamiliar with the term “mushy” or “soft” it relates to the looseness of the fibers contained within the cardboard.
When a circular blade that cuts the card is dulled these fibers become exposed on the edges during the production process and can produce some unattractive examples. I stayed away from those cards for my set. I went for the tightest, crispest cards I could find and was fussy and patient (Thanks Frank!).

CENTERING: Pretty straight-forward here. Tilts are fairly common to this issue so make sure you measure at the worst point if you plan to submit a tilt. The borders are fairly large side-to-side (although actual variations exist in border sizes of some cards as the photo is slightly larger/smaller. Not enough for anyone to really care or even notice, but when you measure your cards, you learn odd things) so centering issues can be deceiving. Also, top to bottom is graded stricter on these than side to side. This indicates to me that many examples are not actually measured by the grading companies but rather “eye-balled”. While cards centered a touch low exist in MINT graded holders, they are not the rule. Try to simply measure the three margins- sides and bottom. If they are the same you’re home free! Don’t worry about how much room appears to be above the team name as those plates vary a touch. On the reverse, you’d measure from where the “grass” is at the bottom corners to the edge & measure the other margins accordingly.

CORNERS-EDGES: Because of the stock issues cited earlier, fraying at the corners on these is more common than any other issue in the decade. I’m not certain if the enamel is not tightly affixed or if the blades sucked, but chipping abounds all over the place on these! Most folks seem to notice how the bottom edges are often jagged-cut and chipped on 1977 Topps. I hear that comment quite often. That is true and those cards are, indeed, garbage. 1981 Topps is similar. If you have a fresh run of those, don’t worry as PSA will grade them MINT as long as there are no chips on the corners and cert-buyers wouldn’t know the difference. You might want to submit those through a volume dealer and piggy-back a 2000-card submission.

SURFACES, PRINT DEFECTS AND COLOR: About the only thing Topps did well that year production-wise was decrease the number of fish-eyes from the two years prior. They should really clean the rollers, however, as extraneous and distracting roller marks and pepper abound! Man, were they ever in a hurry. The gloss is a real key to these cards. There are two distinct surfaces on 1977 topps and the glossy ones are huge! The gloss rolls on these like no other issue I’ve ever collected. 1958’s are similar this way—the colors and surface can be drab or downright electric like a tiffany. Ironically, the stock sucked that year, too! Be patient and find that crisp, glossy run as the color-strikes are usually explosive there as well. One of my higher-profile cards was a Carlton Fisk 10. The card had decent stock, but was slightly out of register and had about the worst color and gloss I’d seen on that issue. It was an eBay purchase that I later upgraded with a 9 and sold. I really don’t think PSA has ever gotten a real handle on this issue, although they have gotten better. SGC seems to notice the surfaces a bit more, but is a bit softer on centering and corners.

WHAT DOES FRAZIER LOOK FOR WHEN SCREENING:
1. Eye-ball the card. Centered? Corners there? Hold it at arms length, pretty? Rotate and tilt the card under bright lamp—glossy? Wrinkles? Snow or other PD?... 77’s are prone to debris that looks like spray paint that is not noticeable at first glance but under lighted scrutiny it changes the cards complexion and could get a qualifier. To date I have never received a qualifier on 1977 topps. Anything casting a shadow around those corners? Flat and crisp? Turn it over—all there? Yes?
Okay. Let’s see if it’s a set candidate...
Look at the team name in BLOCK letters. Is ALL the ink neatly inside the lines? Yes. Is there any tinting from the yellow ink plate above or around the players name or position flag? No. Is the ink under the position flag absolutely jet-black. Yes. Look at the photo. The photo resides in a box- within- a- box and a 1/16” margin remains. Check to see if there is any bleed or pixels wandering out into that margin. If it’s clean you’ve got a perfectly registered, crisp, colorful, sharp, attractive set candidate.

theplasticman

thanks much! That helps.

Anyone here have a bunch of commons in 9? Its going to take me a few years to finish this and Id like to get started small

NHLfightguy

Yep, DGF is the Godfather of this set. Absolutley love the Rod Carew from that set, a classic shot!!!!!!!!!!

theplasticman

I look forward to learning more. Thanks for everyone who has posted and will post on this one.

jimtb

DGF - We couldn't ask for a better explanation of a set. Wouldn't it be great if the gurus of each set would list there knowledge as DGF did? Heck, we'd have the bible of collecting and submitting graded cards. Great job!

downgoesfrazier

<< <i>Yep, DGF is the Godfather of this set. >>



...so, plasticman, tell me what I can do for you. It seems as you're looking for some help getting started...perhaps I can provide you with this help. Perhaps you will someday do my family a favor in return?

I can get you started with...say 15% of the set. Perhaps all 9's...maybe a 10 or two. Some of the lower population stuff...include a Fidrych RC among others. A couple of HOF'ers...indeed a Rod Carew MINT 9. In exchange I would want you to remember where they came from and that many have been in danger and even died for less...




...or perhaps just a fair price--either way. I'll set you up with a very strong price and a comprehensive list. Just email me with what you want to pay per common and I'll figure out the low-pop stuff and stars. Email me and I'll get back to you within 24 hours.


dgf

RayBShotz

Took a brief shot at this set once and was startled how difficult it was to submit cards attempting to get 9's. It's intricacies are well documented here. Buying 9's on ebay and 8's if that's your target is the best way to go from the start. Familiarize yourself completely about all the nuances and most of all have fun.
Buy the card, and buy the cards you like and you will be successful and pleased with your progress.
Best of Luck.
RayBShotz

theplasticman

DGF - Im definitely interested. I need to take it slow for a while but will keep picking stuff up. Id love some commons in 9 and some minor stars for now. I dont swim either, especially not with the fishes.

At any rate, Id love to see some prices for what youve got so I can know what Im up against.

email me here

thanks so much Ray, appreciate the advice. Im probably not going to be submitting anything anytime soon so Im sticking to ebay and you guys for now.

ydsotter

DGF, that's very good writing. Is it from a larger text you were writing? A paper? Article?
Really super... sort of reminded me of the fantastic opening narration from spike lee's summer of sam...
Man, it makes me want to collect the 77 set now...
Good stuff!
-Geoff

ctsoxfan

I'll echo what Ray said about submitting yourself for 9's (or better). Very tough indeed. I have broken numerous 1977 vending boxes, and am amazed at how many 8's resulted. Go with the already slabbed cards, and there seems to be more of them every day.

downgoesfrazier

Otter and gang,
I'm glad you enjoyed the read! I did pull the text from a larger body of work. As I collected the set I kept really meticulous notes...you could say compulsive. The set was built for my son Monty and I wanted some text for its presentation.

As for going with already graded cards...

Be really careful. Some of the bulk stuff of late from a variety of sources is brutal. I mean really gross. The same cards that were getting 7's & 8's just 18 months ago are now in the 9-10 range. Most dealers just go on technical merit. Sharp enough, decent centering--send it in. They are in business to make money and will slab what has a reasonable shot whether it's a nice example or not. PSA seems oblivious to registration and even print blemishes. The eye-appeal is lost on that stuff much of the time. The problem is they're inconsistent in the knowledge of what that issue is capable of. This is in no way trying to be an ego-maniac, but please browse through some of the images in my set. You will not find cards like those typically on eBay. Those were cherry picked from binders, vending cases, rack cases, etc. over a period of five years. Click on my Schmidt or Marty Perez, Gary Mathews, Al Oliver among others. Marty Perez looks like a freaking tiffany! Those cards got NINES! If those are not 10's PSA should get rid of the GEM MINT grade. My Mike Schmidt is likely the best example of that card that will ever be unearthed, yet there are two examples that are FAR inferior residing in 10 holders selling for $1000...here's a little tip--one of them is sheet-cut. When I look at the grizzly garbage 4-sharp and Sirius and DSL get 10's on it's an absolute joke. I have to be content knowing that my Darrel Thomas and Marty Perez BLOW the 10's in the population away! I've owned all of the 10's (I actually turned three of the four) and it wasn't even comparable. When I found my Darrel Thomas I was like "Boo-Yah, cross DT off the list baby!" When it got a 9 I learned two important things. 1. Don't submit blazing commons with blazing HOF'ers. You'll get your 9's but they get real stingy on the commons in giving up the 10, and...2, Be patient and pick the cards yourself so you're happy regardless of what the grading room assigns on a given whim.

Enough ranting and proving to all that I am a card-geek. I would buy a couple of large lots and get started. Look at the examples and find the ones that appeal to you. Set your standards based on your findings and go find the rest yourself. It's just my opinion, but why go for 660 cards and wind up with someone elses standards?

dgf

mcastaldi

Phil> Remind me again how many 9s are in your set because they're better than the 10?

Mike

downgoesfrazier

Mike,
You're one of the few guys who has seen the raw stockpile I keep of these. PSA's inconsistency is the main reason they remain raw. As you well know, I got so tired of "upgrading" only to downgrade on GPA that it just got old. Until PSA figures out new criteria or employs more talented graders the PSA 10 will remain the graded hobbies great mystery.
Remind me again why you're keeping your other blazing sets raw?

For the record I'm just thrilled at how PSA's 10-fest with 4-sharp and others has devalued the 9 population while many of those 9's are superior examples. Can you imagine an invoice of 98 10's out of 100 cards? I've submitted cards worthy of that but alas never actually GOT those grades. It's just crazy. Subjective competition with changing rules where only money can win long-term...sounds great, sign me up. It's not sour grapes as I've turned more 10's than anyone and my set is ranked highest, just a clear statement of facts.

dgf

jackstraw

phil
nick pick on the carew! any chance of a scan of that one soon?

estang

I picked this up on ebay recently for $40 plus shipping. I think it is more like an 8.5 due to a slightly touched upper right corner. I have a BVG 9 that blows this SGC example away --- possibly a sheet cut --- who knows???

theplasticman

awesome info