Another Bogus 1801 Half Dollar on eBay

Nysoto

eBay #3937319384 was brought to my attention by another person who correctly identified the coin as altered from 1806/5 O.103 to 1801. with 6 days to go, it is up to $561. Seller states "coin was approved by professional coin dealers as authentic."

I would hate to see a person get burned from this altered coin. Any recommendations?

Bill

Steve27

Link

JadeRareCoin

Any recommendations?

Yes. Where's scumnuker??? Also, report it to eBay. This happens way too often on eBay, which really sucks for the honest sellers. Scumballs like the seller of the fake 1801 are littering an otherwise viable marketplace.

Steve27

Try reporting it to ebay here: LINK

ss350camaro

This is the proper link to report to ebay.

Go to the bottom of the page and click on the "Report" link.

Nysoto

Thanks guys, I will report it to eBay and let you know what happened.

Bill

ss350camaro

I received the following response from the seller from my question about the possibility of it being a 1806/5 0.103 to 1801.



<< <i>Dear Friend, If you think PCGS not reputable expert, I don't know what to say. I send my coin to PCGS not for grading, for confirming only and I have paper work. But I appreciate your concern and I already confirm with eBay authorities about proof I have. Thank you. >>

JadeRareCoin

Well, now we know he's lying. That makes it 99.9% certain that he is fully aware that he is selling a counterfeit (altered date) coin.

ss350camaro

<< <i>Well, now we know he's lying. That makes it 99.9% certain that he is fully aware that he is selling a counterfeit (altered date) coin. >>



JRC,
I'd like to respond back to him. Give me something i can say about his response.

Thanks,

Doug

JrGMan2004

Care to share what tipped you off as to it being counterfeit/altered? What diagnostics did you look for?

XpipedreamR

<< <i>Care to share what tipped you off as to it being counterfeit/altered? What diagnostics did you look for? >>






Wow...I was just going to ask that question

JadeRareCoin

Care to share what tipped you off as to it being counterfeit/altered? What diagnostics did you look for?

I can't answer for Bill, but when I first saw the coin (via this thread), I noticed that the date area was heavily tooled. I brought it into Photoshop and enlarged the date area and then it is very obvious that the second "1" in 1801 is not like any "1" I have seen on a Pre-Turb Half. Rather, it is obviously hand fashioned with the intent to decieve. Look at the upper portion of the "1" compared with the first "1" in the date. Not even close. The die sinker would have used the same punch to make both 1's in the date, presumably.

Once you get past the tooling in the date, take a look at the distinctively large stars on the obverse. There are only 2 varieties of 1801 halves and neither has stars of that fashion. I didn't double check the 1806 O-103 attribution, but if Nysoto says it it........IT IS.

JadeRareCoin

I'd like to respond back to him. Give me something i can say about his response.

Call his bluff. Say that PCGS does not authenticate coins without encapsulating them in plastic. Doesn't happen, at least to the best of my knowledge. The only paperwork that he would have received from a PCGS submission is a body bag stating that it was "not genuine" or "altered", etc. They would not say, "coin is cleaned so it cannot be slabbed, but it is genuine". He is lying.

ss350camaro

Thanks

I'll post any response i get from him.

coinguy1

<< <i>Say that PCGS does not authenticate coins without encapsulating them in plastic. Doesn't happen, at least to the best of my knowledge >>

Dennis, I sent something similar to him a while ago, in response to his " Dear Friend, If you experts as good as PCGS, I'll take there words.My coin have a conformation from PCGS and I have paper work. I am selling and buying a lot, will you think I'll state the coin is REAL if is NOT. But I appreciate your concern. Thank you."

I haven't received a reply yet.

JadeRareCoin

conformation from PCGS and I have paper work.

Yeah. He needs a good dose of "paper work" from his local police department.

relayer

Most everything on eBay is bogus in one way or another

Nysoto

Another person attributed this coin as 1806/5 O.103a, I verified it from the obv stars in relation to LIBERTY and lower curl. As Dennis mentioned the stars are huge, which occur on 1806 obv 1. I use the lower berry in relation to A to rule out O.102, and the three right rev stars for O.103. But the blunt rims show the last usage and late die state found only on O.103, and it might be O.103a.

I sent a note to ebay. What bothers me is that even if the auction is cancelled, he will find another buyer somewhere. The coin should be destroyed, this is actually a more deceptive example of a fake 1801. Three years ago there was an 1807 O.105 altered to 1801 on eBay, this is the more common alteration that is easier to detect. I emailed the winning bidder ($750) who thanked me for catching it.

Bill

earlwbollinger

Well in blwing up the image some, it sure as heck looks like someone
had fiddled around with the date, plus it looks whizzed and toned oddly around the date as well.
But there is a slim possibly it is some sort of pizellation around that area.

UncleJoe

I think it is all in the wording.

The coin is real, just an altered date.

Joe.

ss350camaro

Here's a photoshopped pic of the coins date. Blown up, and cleaned up a little to eliminate the pixel "blurryness"
Looks pretty obvious that it's been "tooled"

Nysoto

The easiest tipoff that this coin is not 1801 is the reverse stars are large. The reverse stars are very small on 1801, 1802, and 1803 O.101 and O.102. This is the only significant design change in DBHE reverses.

Bill

stev32k

I got kind of interested in this thread and sent the following email to the seller - and received the reply:

(original email)
"I would like to bid on your 1801 dollar, but have a couple of questions first. Who are the professionals that authenticated your coin. And can you fax or email me a copy of the paper work."

(reply)
Dear Friend,
It's PCGS, you can go on PCGS site and check Cert. Verification and check #90117551. You win coin I'll send you papers alone with coin.
Thank you.

The number checks out to an 1801 dollar that was "cleaned". Just a couple of observations - 1)If I had been asked for a copy of the paper work by a potential bidder I would have sent it - if the coin was genuine; and 2) English is not his native language.

Edit: I beg your pardon - the number does not check out to an 1801 dollar it's an 1801 half dollar. Sorry bout that

coinguy1

Stev32k, did you report your findings to the seller after you looked up the cert. # he provided?

I am immediately skeptical/on guard when someone I don't know addresses me as "Dear friend" or "my friend" - anyone else?

ss350camaro

COIN INFORMATION
Date, mintmark: 1801
Denomination: 50C
Variety: N/A
Pedigree:
Country: USA
Grade: Cleaning

Barry

That cert is a half dollar, not a dollar.

This brings up an interesting question:
If PCGS bags a coin for cleaning, does that mean they already verified its authenticity. Which comes first?

coinguy1

Barry, I believe it is quite possible that PCGS quickly came to a no-grade (cleaned) decision and missed the alteration.

I remember when I was grading at NGC and occasionally saw a genuine coin with multiple reasons to no-grade it. It was often a dilemma as to which reason(s) to mark for the no-grade, as if we checked just one, it could mistakenly lead the submitter (or someone else) to believe everything else about the coin was ok.

ss350camaro

<< <i>
Barry, I believe it is quite possible that PCGS quickly came to a no-grade (cleaned) decision and missed the alteration. >>




If that's the case then a seller could use the PCGS "body-bag" cert as an authentication tool.

Saying, "yes, it's been cleaned but PCGS certified it's authenticity", by not claiming it is "altered".


That sucks big time !!

coinguy1

George, that would be a true shame. Please keep in mind however, that I was speculating, based upon the circumstances presented.

Barry

I just posed the BB question to HRH in the Q&A forum. Look for an answer later tonight.

stev32k

Keep in mind that there is no way to connect the PCGS number to the coin being auctioned. The PCGS number only shows that there is an 1801 half that has been cleaned. It does not prove that the one being auctioned is the same as the one in the PCGS data base.

The fact that the seller did not want to provide a copy of the paper work regarding the PCGS determination makes me suspicious.

coinguy1

I am unaware of ANY documentation that the seller could possibly have from PCGS, which would prove the coin he's offering was judged by them to be a genuine 1801 Half Dollar.

Conder101

The question about whether a coin bagged for cleaning or other reason other than authentiity has been asked before and the answer was thet once a grader sees something that will bag the coin examination goes no further. So if a cleaned fake comes in and the first thing the grader sees is the harsh cleaning it gets bagged at that point and can come back without being marked as questionable authenticity. So a bodybagged coin that is not marked as counterfeit DOES NOT mean that the coin is genuine.

stev32k

<< I am unaware of ANY documentation that the seller could possibly have from PCGS, which would prove the coin he's offering was judged by them to be a genuine 1801 Half Dollar. >>

I don't know of any either, but he said he would send it if I won the bid??

Russ

Coins are bodybagged based on the first thing the grader sees. Thus, if it was the cleaning seen first, it could still very well be an altered coin. A bodybag for cleaning is no assurance that coin is genuine.

Edit: OOPS. I see Conder beat me to it.

Russ, NCNE

earlwbollinger

Thread
David Hall stated in the above thread:
We would have a tendency to say "counterfeit" before we said "cleaned." But if a coin is harsely cleaned, we might not look that close for authenticity. Our guarantee of grade and authenticity only applies to coins in our holders...not body bags.

Thus unless it is in a slab, it isn't authenticated.

ss350camaro

<< <i>We would have a tendency to say "counterfeit" before we said "cleaned." But if a coin is harsely cleaned, we might not look that close for authenticity. Our guarantee of grade and authenticity only applies to coins in our holders...not body bags. >>



Sounds to me like that if the graders notice cleaning, and don't investigate any further, that a coin would be bodybagged (for cleaning) and nothing else ? The bodybag label would say "Cleaned" and that would not alert to any other problems such as an alteration.

This in effect would allow the ebay seller to advertise the coin as PCGS Certified "Cleaned" according to the label. He/She would have a valid PCGS Cert number to referrence and use as a selling tool. Nothing about any other possible problems because the grader(s) didn't observe the coin any further.

This scenareo is scary. It seems to give rip off sellers a way to use PCGS as a selling tool, without the coin actually in a PCGS slab !

JadeRareCoin

Absolutely. I have seen counterfeits bagged for other reasons, such as cleaning. We are now at a point where the seller

A) really believes that the coin is genuine, but has been cleaned, or
knows that the coin is counterfeit and cleaned, but is trying to pass it off as the real thing

I would guess that he doesn't know that it is fake. Why would he waste time and money sending it to PCGS if he knew it was counterfeit. PCGS should have stated "questionable authenticity" on the body bag.

Russ

<< <i>He/She would have a valid PCGS Cert number to referrence and use as a selling tool. >>



The cert number is only "valid" if it is associated with a graded coin. Otherwise, it's just a database tracking tool.

Russ, NCNE

mgoodm3

I don't know what percentage of cleaned counterfeits are called cleaned on the BB rather than counterfeit. But if that number is a significant percentage they may send them in for just the purpose of the "cleaned" BB, and use the BB as a authenticity cert.

Baley

I also think it looks altered. Quick, everyone post pics of your genuine 1801 half dollars,
and we'll compare the numerals and stars!

Nice work Nysoto.

stev32k

I see the auction has been ended early by the seller and all bids canceled. Interesting.

JadeRareCoin

Good job guys!

Conder101

<< <i>I would guess that he doesn't know that it is fake. Why would he waste time and money sending it to PCGS if he knew it was counterfeit. PCGS should have stated "questionable authenticity" on the body bag. >>


Some to consider, the coin in question here is NOT a counterfeit, nad it is not a genuine 1801 either. It is a genuine draped bust half dollar with a altered date. The BB should read altered, not counterfeit. Questionable authenticity would be marginally acceptable.

JadeRareCoin

Some to consider, the coin in question here is NOT a counterfeit, nad it is not a genuine 1801 either. It is a genuine draped bust half dollar with a altered date. The BB should read altered, not counterfeit. Questionable authenticity would be marginally acceptable.

They chose from a canned list of reasons for each body bag. There are not that many choices to chose from. I don't even think that they have a "counterfeit" canned reason. They, and others, use "questionable authenticity" for the blanket reason to cover counterfeit, altered date, replica, etc, etc, etc.

Conder101

You're right I checked the body bags. PCGS has a check box for questionable authenticity but none for altered coin. They do have a check box for altered surfaces, the meaning of which might be stretched to cover alterations. They also have a check box for damage which could cover it as well. Questionable authenticity would probably be the best choice though. Its authenticity as a genuine US coin is not in doubt, but its authenticity as an 1801 half dollar is questionable.

At NGC you have better choices. including Not Genuine, Obverse damage, altered surfaces, and most importantly Other with a line where the reason can be filled in such as "Altered date".

NCS actually has the best choice though. In addition to Not Genuine, they have a check box for Mechanically Altered.