Question to PSA regarding the 01 Pujols BC Rookies 5/500

joestalin

This has been a hot topic over on the BGS board. As some of you know there are two 2001 BC Pujols rookie
cards up for auction on ebay. That wouldn't be such a big deal except for the fact that they are BOTH
numbered 5/500. One is graded by PSA and the other by BGS. Its obvious that one if not both have
been altered.

What is PSA doing to make sure that this doesn't happen in the future? Has there been any contact with
topps on this issue? We are talking about the difference between a 2000 dollar card and a 10000 dollar
card. How safe are ink numbered cards in your holders?

Thanks
JS
(representing many)

maxXposure

great question..

helionaut

Too late now, but I've never understood why serial numbered cards aren't numbered on the flip. It's a little extra work for the grading company, and there has to be a slot in the database that can be unique to each card, but at this point it should be strongly considered for any label redesigns. This wouldn't prevent fraud, but would at least give some security that the card goes with the holder.

No hand-numbered card is immune to it, though. For chrome cards especially, with the heavily laminated surface, I don't think the ink can resist being rubbed off. Eventually, someone could match the ink and the handwriting and any card could become a key number card. This is the fault of the card companies, not any grading comanies, though.

ctsoxfan

This is a valid question. The cards also have a small serial numbered sticker on the reverse. You would think that this number could be used by Topps to validate the "real" 5/500 card. I guess not, though.

In fairness, it has got to be darn near impossible to pick up the difference in ink, or print style, on a simple hand number. I would hope that they could, but due to past history, I would be more suspect of anything graded by Beckett.

ChicagoGlen

I would like to see a scan of the back of the card inquestion in the PSA holder.


I would question the following:

Private Feedback
Limited Scans
Money Order/ Personel Check
(0) feedback bidders allowed on a large dollar item


It just doesn't feel right.

Glen

joestalin

If you go to the beckett site and to the baseball talk forum you can find the thread there and the
scans of the backs of the cards. One of the cards is numbered 5/500 and the other 005/500. The
zeros in the 005/500 look very different and the 5/500 looks odd too.

JS

NickM

If the scammer simply removes numbers and doesn't add any in, there would be no differences in ink or print style to pick up.

Nick

MRyanF

Can someone link to the auctions, or have they been taken down?

MRyanF

Never mind, I found them. And things dont look as good for the PSA one either, which is the opposite of what I was hoping for.

In my mind the 005/500 card is authentic. If you examine the way the 5 in "005" is written it matches up to the 5 in "500" However, there are significant differences between the "5" on the "5" part of the "5/500" card and the "500" Interestingly the 5 of the 500 on the "5/500" card matches exactly with both of the 5's on the 005/500.

Under computer enhanced magnification, the "00" part of "005" and the "00" part of "500" are drafted by the same hand with only the normal variation that would be expected to be present

I can see how this might slip by a grader, but it would seem that they might notice the method by which the other number was removed, unless the whole card is a counterfeit, which seems not very likely.

NickM

But how do the 0's match up? And was 005 really how those cards were numbered (i.e., is there a 007/500)?

Nick

MRyanF

See above for my comment on the "00"'s.

I put in a call to Topps, but could not get anyone on the phone who knew enough to help.

joestalin

Supposdly the low numbers were numbered 00, such as 001, 002, 003...etc. A few facts? have been
brought to our attention over there, one by a person who actually works at topps (allegedly)

*These cards were numbered in order, but the authentication sticker, which also contains a number, were
not put on in order, so you can't do by that....actually the 003 and 004 authentication numbers ARE
just 2 digits away. Its also funny that neither of the 5's, have authentication numbers close to the
#003 and 004.

*It was also pointed out that topps has many extras in case of damage and can number these whatever
they want. Human error can be a factor but we have seen more than 2 5/500's

It was also brought up that the PSA graded one..5/500 right? it looked like even the 5 was different like the
origianl number may of not been something easily erased like 095/500 or 195/500

Im not trying to point the blame here on anyone but this is a HUGE deal to people who get cards graded. I
would like to know what plan the grading companies have in place to combat these fakes, again the
difference here is several thousand's of dollars.

Thanks
kevin

joestalin

Here are the scans:

ajw

<< <i>Im not trying to point the blame here on anyone but this is a HUGE deal to people who get cards graded. I
would like to know what plan the grading companies have in place to combat these fakes, again the
difference here is several thousand's of dollars. >>



I agree with you...it is a big problem. However, the grading companies aren't the place to look for answers. If you really can just wipe off the sharpie and write what you want, there might not be any answer for PSA/GAI/SGC or anyone else. If you really can't tell that it's been tampered with, there's nothing they can do. The real answer lies with the card makers, who need to take steps to guarantee that their cards can't be tampered with in this way. Most cards these days are stamped, right? It's too bad that such a major card is plagued with this problem, but I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it now.

Of course, I've never seen a card like this, so maybe the grading companies should be able to spot the tampering. Who has personal experience with these cards? Is it really possible to alter them without leaving any evidence behind?

joestalin

How does PSA deem an autograph real? Don't they look at the writing? Wouldn't it seem like the same thing
here?

You are right, hopefully topps has learned from their mistake, even though this mess up cost them nothing.
They sold the product out...the graders got their money too, you know who bends over on this one!

JS

delgadofan

Just out of curiosity why did he change his uniform number from 36 which you can clearly see on the card?

joestalin

They probably already had a 36 on the team when he joined. The pic isn't necessarily from a game
with St Louis. This happens a lot

Kevin

ajw

<< <i>How does PSA deem an autograph real? Don't they look at the writing? Wouldn't it seem like the same thing
here?
>>



Yeah, that's how the do autographs...but they have a Hank Aaron or Dick Nixon auto to compare it to. They probably don't have a "Bill the intern at Topps who numbers the cards" file that they can compare it to.

Vincecarder

I recorded the serial numbers for the 1998 Sp authentic Vince Carter RC for awhile and noticed some cards were graded multiple times. I always asked for the grading companies to record serial numbers but they will never do it. Any hand numbered card on a glossy surface can be changed and a grading company can't tell the difference (unless the numbering was done with a marker with a sharp tip, it digs into the card).

there will be more 5/500 or 005/500 cards....too much money for a greeder person not to try.

joestalin

actually they do have a Bill the intern to compare it too. The /500 part should be real, or at least it should
be the same as the 5/ It isn't in either of these cards, even I can see that.

Kevin

dtkk49a

Do we know if Topps indeed used three digits in the serial number ?
You would need to compare these cards to other examples, like cards 001 thru 009. I'd like to see other cards with a 5, like card 50/500 or 55/500.
Without comparing these cards with other examples, I think the BGS is real.

helionaut

Signatures are one thing, but handwriting is something else, and you can't use 3 characters to affirm a handwriting sample as genuine. Try it yourself. If you write out "500" 500 times, some will look different from others. On the "005/500" card, it looks like both 5s are the same, but the zeroes look different. But I can't say for sure that it is bogus.

EagleEyeKid

What's to stop all other #s like 125/500 115/500 or any other card
that ends in a 5 to show up as another 5/500?