1958 Topps Pancho, is this the real thing?

baseballjeff

Hello Everyone,

I have been waiting to see one of these for sale for quite some time. I am sure I am not alone here. So, let me ask. Is this the real thing? And what do you all think of this seller selling such a gem?

Thanks a lot everyone! And if anyone knows where one could pick up even lower PSA graded one please PM me as I would greatly appreciate any and all advice for this card.

Jeff

Pancho

mikeschmidt

Card seems authentic - but the question is whether or not it actually belongs to the seller. His terms of sale do not add a lot of comfort there - nor does his unknown status on Ebay, his never selling before, and the fact that he's only won a few $20 things here and there before. If this is indeed real, it should go for five figures.

There are a bunch of red flags here - I have a question for seller in on this auction.

CDC4

Yeah I think that this is the real thing. Get ready to pay up for it though. Good luck.

mudflap02

Jeff-

Levi has a few of the Herrer cards on his website -

Link to Levi

Good luck

NickM

I believe this is the card that was recently discussed on the Beckett boards by the owner thereof, who bought it raw and had it graded.

Nick

calleocho

the auction seems legit enough...but there are a couple of things that stick out..like no paypal and no selling history.

this is a perfect example of a card that would sell much better in mastro than on ebay.

ranger63

i would think with the high feedback and the fact that the payment must be mailed to an address it would be safer. It is awfully easy to set up a PayPal account with a fake address. This way you can at least track the person.

RG58

I saw it up on EBAy... I got excited until I looked into the seller's feedback and terms of the sale.
My guess is that it isn't legitimate but who knows? Presently the high bidder is Goodwin and Co and they would not likely fall for an internet ebay scam (I think!). Definetly a gamble considering the value of such a card. If it was sold in Mastro or another reliable auction house it would go for 20,000- 30,000$. I think the seller is crazy to put it up on ebay without a reliable selling history and confident terms of sale! This one will be interesting!

Look at it this way... the top 3 or 4 jabbing for #1 top MASTER 1958 set NEED this card. The winner of the card will get top honors and essentially LOCK IN top honors for years to come! No one has completed the 1958 MASTER set basically because this card and one or 2 other cards have been unattainable (until now, I think?)

Griffins

How unattainable can a card be when Levi has 5 available, and BMW had a really nice one up last month? It is a very tough card, but not impossible-

Under the near impossible category I'd put uncancelled '60 Fleer #80 of Tinker, Grove or Collins, vitually any Topps Dice Game, or the Pepsi Bateman card.

baseballjeff

I want to thank everyone for there input on this awesome card. And I hope we continue to chatter about it as it comes close to ending because it will certainly be fun to watch. I do have another question for RG 58. You said something about a couple other VERY rare hard to get '58s. Which ones are these?

Thank you,
Jeff

Griffins

For me the toughest ones (after the Herrer) were the team checklist variations.

bobsbbcards

Edited because my stupid computer didn't want to post the first message. If you'd be so kind as to read the one below. Thanks so much.

bobsbbcards

My last three '58s were the #377 Braves Numerical checklist, #433 P. Herrer, and #13 B. Hoeft (white letters, red triangle). I took a shortcut by getting only 1 of each checklist (not both Bazooka and Bloney). I'm lazy.

Card #289, Shantz/Burdette was about the hardest card I had to find (waited for eternity for PSA 7 or higher).

Bob

Anthony--

What's the Pepsi Bateman card?

Griffins

Gee thanks Bob, I didn't know about the 3rd Hoeft variation. Just when you thought your set was complete...

In '63 Pepsi issued a regional set of Colt .45's. The Bateman was apparentely never distributed, and is one of the rarest post war cards. In going thru 10 years of back issues of Mastro/Lifson/Steinbach catalogs I can't see a single one- the Copeland Auction from '91 has the only one I"ve seen offered (but I"ve only been back collecting 5 years, and am relying on back auction catalogs I"ve collected). I'm sure our resident savants MS or Murcer can fill in more details, but suffice to say it is a very tough card.


PS Weren't the Bazooka/Blony checklists from '57?

schr1st

Here is a link to the Beckett post on the card.

mikeschmidt

Anthony:

I've never heard of the Bateman before - learn something new every day! What is it with Pepsi and tough cards? The 1980 Pepsi prototypes are still regarded as one of the rarest out there. Sure, they were never issued - but were the Dice Game? I only know of a single Pepsi prototype residing in one advanced collector's collection. They've simply disappeared from the hobby. The things ToppsVault auctioned were cool - but they nonetheless don't count.

I would take issue on the Herrer card being "easy". To the best of my knowledge - there have been a total of seven or eight examples to sell in the last six years - and that is only by virtue of the four that Levi currently has in his inventory. Granted, they obviously are a little easier to find than some of the other rarities out there - but I am pretty darn confident that there are not too many of these sitting out there. Certainly it makes a Magie look like an easy, easy find. I'm not sure where Levi got his - and he, as usual, has priced to make sure that he will both sit on them for a while, and make a hefty return when he does sell. If you look through his examples, the two things that stick out to me are:

A) One of the examples really isn't a No A variation. It looks like it had to be one of the last, loose stamps before the A finally broke off.
The PSA 4 he has is absolutely outstanding. It's missing the A. It's missing the R. And it's even missing part of the E. Had I not just made a large purchase - that would be the one card currently available in the hobby over which I would be salivating.

~ms

NickM

For the '58 specialists here, what would you say is the approximate ratio of white letter to yellow letter variations in this set (or does that vary greatly between cards that have variations)?

Nick

bobsbbcards

<< <i>PS Weren't the Bazooka/Blony checklists from '57? >>


Yeah, I must have been more drunk than usual when I typed that in. My guilt over having holes in my '57 set must have spilled over into my '58 set. How about that Gene Bakep fella? He must have been from '58, no?

Thanks for the info on Bateman. I haven't started into as much single team stuff, so I had a knowledge gap.

Bob

P.S. You'll see the White/Red Hoefts on eBay once in a while, but they're always in VG+++ condition. Graded ones come up about once every solar eclipse.

benkenobi13

Ok guys. Yes, the card is really mine and I have it in my possesion. I think I have made a rather large mistake by selling this one myself becuase it has opened up a lot of speculation as to the authenticity of the card. I purchased the card at a mall show a couple of months back at Westgate Mall in Spartanburg, South Carolina. I submitted the card for grading at last month's Fort Washington show and got it back a couple of weeks ago. Normally, I do not buy or sell via eBay. I buy at shows or direct, hence the rather low feedback. Anyway, I paid $200 for the card at that show. I was not sure if it was the real deal or not but took the chance. That is the only reason I had it graded, I wanted to guarantee the authenticity of the card. Now, it comes back an 8 an my world goes into a tailspin. I certainly can't afford to keep the card because that money could be put to better use for me. I collect a good bit of vintage but mostly lower end, certainly not this kind of card. I just thought I would reply to explain some of your questions, concerns. I can provide other scans if someone would like to see the front/back or just to get a better look. Sorry for the long, long read.
BTW- I am not going to accept Paypal because of the fees, they would kill me. I guess I should have sold a little more before listing this one though.

Buccaneer

My god, why can't we all be so lucky and find a $20k card for $200 at a mall show?

RG58

Griffens,

the Herrer error card is virtually unattainable as a PSA 8- if you want a lower grade card, then you can get it from Levi. I have seen Levi's cards at the National this year and not to be too critical, they aren't that impressive. The card being offered on ebay right now is in a whole different stratosphere compared to Levi's cards. In any case I am jealous because I know you own one as well.

other tough cards from the 58 set are the numerical team checklist variations in PSA 8

I still think the toughest PSA 8 card of the 1950s is the 1958 Bob Lemon yellow variation in PSA 8. Its not a common which makes it super tough compared to some other tough commons of the 1950s with similar pops.

mikeschmidt

FWIW:

There is at least one Herrer PSA 8 error out there that is not labeled as such - it is just labelled as Pancho Herrera. I wonder if there may be more out there like that...?

bobsbbcards

...and the card is no longer for sale. Probably for the best. I expect to see it resurface in a large mega-glossy auction catalog sometime real soon.

Griffins

RG-
No argument here. The pop report says 2 PSA 8's- This one was as close to perfect as I expect to see. I was referring to how tough it is overall, in any condition. I'm just happy to have one- I had a choice between a '58 set with the Yellow Letter variations, and a set with the Herrer, and I literally flipped a coin. I didn't know Jack then (and know him only casually now) so I got lucky. The next week someone offered me a set of the yellow letter variations, and I was almost home free (minus those though few team checklists and the contest cards).
I had a long talk with Levi about these cards at the National- I was under the impression it was just no A, but he had ones with partial A, no RA, etc. Looks like the plate was getting blocked thru the press run.
Agree with Bob, this'll probably be seen next in a catalog auction. I hope the seller got them to waive the selling fee for this!

mikeschmidt

I actually believe that Ebay would have been the best place for this seller to sell the card - but through a consignment to an established player (think Bollman, Legacy, etc.). Oh well - I certainly do hope that we see this one again....

~ms

Buccaneer

Interesting reaction. I remembered all of the negativity regarding a seller pulling the 65 set. But he admitted to his mistake instead of jacking potential buyers around so I wish him success; he deserve it for finding this card.

benkenobi13

Hope you enjoy looking!
Joey

Griffins

So what happened? Off ebay sale, or coming to a catalog auction near you?

benkenobi13

I ended the auction becuase of the shear volume of negative feedback I was receiving about the cards authenticity. I had so many people saying that I could not possibly even own a card like this with my feedback. I had approximately 75 emails to answer last night after work and I just cannot deal with all of that myself. Almost all of those 75 were questioning my integrity, hence the scans I posted here to prove my ownership. I do believe a few here were skeptical too but no hard feelings. It just seemed like I could have answered emails and returned phone messages on that card from sun up till sun down and I simply do not have the time. And then, if I cannot answer all the email in a timely manner, I am a crook or scam artist again because they think I am dodging them. I think I am going to hang onto the card for a while until I am almost ready to go back to school. But, I most likely will consign it with someone and let them deal with the hassle. Levi from 707 has offered his services in consigning but I am not sure. I just proved to myself that I do not have the time or expertise to handle running this type of auction. Again, hope you guys enjoy the scans, everyone seems to just want to see the card up close.

oaktown

That's an incredible card with an amazing story!! Good move taking it off eBay, I think a large auction house could be the way to go. Good luck in whichever avenue you choose.

PotatoChip

benkenobi13, please post the submission number and your zip code. Thank you.


Jerry Stanton

bobsbbcards

<< <i>benkenobi13, please post the submission number and your zip code >>


Yep, that should do it. Actually, that would be better than a proof of life picture. Not that I distrust benkenobi13 (seems like an upfront guy), but I could meld a picture of today's newspaper with a card scan in just a couple of minutes with PhotoShop.

Personally, I hope he has the submission and zip code. Would restore my trust in humanity.

Good luck benkenobi13...you're our only hope!

Bob

packCollector

not to be a jack a$$ , but where is the rest of the newspaper? if you scanned it with the card , wouldn't it display entirely under the card, sub and zip would go a long way. consign it to legacy and your troubles will be over and all doubts will be removed.

bobsbbcards

<< <i>not to be a jack a$$ , but where is the rest of the newspaper? >>


I thought that same thing, but chose not to be a jack a-dollar-dollar. He could have torn a thin strip off the top of the newspaper (it does go partially under the slab and looks torn). If someone were going to go to the trouble of manufacturing a newspaper under a portion of the slab, they could just as easily have made it look like it was tucked under the whole thing.

Benefit of doubt for now--and still looking for the invoice # and zip code.

B

mudflap02

I feel like the card is as legit as they come, and the guy has gone out of his way to prove himself. It seems like nobody wants to believe that dreams can come true any more - keep in mind that I'm not a potential buyer of the card either.

Also keep in mind that Potato Chip is MW/somebody like that, and don't let his dancing banana fool you.

bobsbbcards

Jeff,

I'm not a disbeliever--just a delayed believer. The seller sounds far more intelligent and honest than most of the "suspect" sellers. As I said before, I hope he's legit. That said, there's no better way to quiet the remaining detractors (of which I may or may not be one) than to post the invoice # and his Spartanburg zip code.

Potato chip may be MW or he/she may be Santa/Mrs. Santa Claus. It doesn't really matter in this thread, since he suggested a sure-fire approach for the seller to prove his legitimacy. Thanks Santa.

Bob

Edited to add that Santa's banana wasn't dancing as much as waving.

wlf3

benkenobi13,

u in spartanberg SC? or elsewhere?

schr1st

Why are people having such a hard time beliving him on this card? Of all of the cards to try and scam with, why would you use a pop 2 variation card? I'm usually as suspicious as most people here, but I think people are going a bit over the top here.

1954

Benkennobi-
Just put it with one of the auction houses. Tell them that you will consign it for 5% fee and be done with it. The card will fetch stupid money either way you go. It does not matter which auction house you go through because everyone will see it. Personally, I would have contacted the three big hitters and told them to name their price on it and taken the best offer. That really sucks that all those people would email you about your integrity.
You can thank boards like this for that.

1954

CON40

I agree with 1954. He has bent over backwards to show he owns the card. I don't hold it aginst him that he hasnt produced a submission number and zip code. That's a veteran tactic that he is most likely unaware he can even link here. Besides, I think his scans look legit. The manner in which the newspaper type appears through the frosted portion of the slab cannot be faked without expert skill in Photoshop.

I take him at his word that he was in the right place in the right time to pick up this card. We should all be so lucky.

packCollector

Why are people having such a hard time beliving him on this card? Of all of the cards to try and scam with, why would you use a pop 2 variation card? I'm usually as suspicious as most people here, but I think people are going a bit over the top here.



sean ,this isn't directed at you but your quote worked. isn't this the everything is a scam board? wasn't it not too long ago that having a po box was considered a scam here? or not taking paypal was another scam i think?

I just asked a question on his scan as it looked funny. I figured he had the card even before that scan but the scan didn't do anything to help him the way the paper was cut off.

CON40

I decided to search some of the sert numbers around the Herrer cert... here's what I found:

90356325 2004 Bowman Chrome PSA 9
90356326 1914 Crackerjack M. Brown PSA 4
90356327 1960 Topps H. Smith PSA 7
90356328 1960 Topps H. Foiles PSA 7
90356329 1961 Topps Bouchee PSA 7
90356330 1959 Topps Nellie Fox AS PSA 7
90356331 <Herrer>
90356332 1914 Crackerjack common PSA 3
90356333 1969 Topps M. Mantle YL PSA 8mc
90356334 1987 Topps Barry Bonds PSA 7
90356335 2004 Bowman Chrome PSA 10
90356336 2004 Bowman Chrome PSA 10

For the most part, this looks very much like a collector's submission. The CJ Brown and the '69 Mantle are great cards, but these are not premium copies. And the mix of vintage and modern onthe same submission pretty much rules out this was some high-end dealer submission gone bad. The more I read and see and search, the more I think this is a decent guy who didn't do his homework before listing this card for sale.

RG58

I think it is the job of this board to police Ebay for scams. Not that this is a scam, but questioning the integrity of a seller is better than not questioning at all. The Ebay staff definitely doesn't care about the consumer enough and we have to look out for ourselves! We have to rely on these boards for info, opinions etc! Most of us have been ripped off at some point on ebay. You would have to be stupid to bid 20 grand on a card without a thorough investigation of authenticity (which we depend on PSA to do for us) and seller reliability!

In any case, it seems like the real deal!

benkenobi13

This is starting to feel like an xfiles rerun with all the conspiracy theories abounding. I would have posted this sooner but I do not get off work until 5:30 EST. Today, I had to make a 180 mile trip after work to pick up my girlfriend's new scottish terrier puppy. Sorry if you guys thought I was avoiding you. Anyway, the submission number is 4209167 and my zip code is 29303. Anyway, hope this clears up your doubts once and for all.

mudflap02

<< <i>new scottish terrier puppy >>



That thing is about to be living in a solid gold doghouse. Congrats on the find.

1954

Can you prove you just bought this puppy? I need to see your receipts and gas bills.


1954

bobsbbcards

benkenobi13,

Congratulations on owning a fantastic card! I wish you the best with its sale.

I am happy that I've already acquired a Herrer, but I regret not having $20K laying around to buy yours. I also appreciate you going the extra mile (180 actually) to allay our fears. Rarely has a card of this magnitude been offered on eBay where an unknown seller is legit. Members here have been burned before and are justifiably wary of "dream" cards that come out of nowhere.

You've also single-handedly caused a majority of us to head for the nearest mall show in hopes of another "find."

Bob

P.S. When you sell the card, get all the money in quarters (enough to fill a room), and swim around in them like Scrooge McDuck. I always loved that image.

schr1st

Anyone happen to notice the Herrer(a) in the current Mastronet auction?

mikeschmidt

Yup. A poster on the Net 54 board is the consignor.

Marshall has one of the PSA 8s.

The population report is inaccurate - as at least one other 8 I know exists is not properly marked 'Herrer'

~ms

ajw

The Herrer on Mastro has some strange staining (or something on the back). The discoloration is on two of the corners. What do others make of this? It can't be a gum stain and doesn't look like a wax stain to me. Interesting...

onlychild

<< <i>Under the near impossible category I'd put uncancelled '60 Fleer #80 of Tinker, Grove or Collins, vitually any Topps Dice Game, or the Pepsi Bateman card. >>



I would also include the 1924 Parker Brothers Rook Game (2 card set). Only 5 known individual examples and those have just recently surfaced. PSA has graded just 2 of them.

Kevin