Some help on a 1999 Yankees team-signed bat
jrdolan
Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
A collector is trying to repay a debt to me, in part, with a bat he describes as 1999 Yankees World Series. It is not a game bat, but it has 22 signatures. He says he acquired it at a Resorts International event in 2000 in Atlantic City, where signed memorabilia were sold for charity.
Obviously this bat must be sent to PSA/DNA before I can sell it and erase part of the debt, and the debtee knows that. Any idea how much it costs to authenticate a bat with 22 names? Any idea what the bat might sell for? You can tell I don't handle auto bats too much.
The sigs are Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, Roger Clemens, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, Jeff Nelson, Paul O'Neill, Shane Spencer, Chuck Knoblauch, Orlando Hernandez, Tino Martinez, David Cone, Jim Leyritz, Ramiro Mendoza, Chad Curtis, Scott Brosius, Jorge Posada, Chili Davis, Ricky Ledee, Luis Sojo, Darryl Strawberry.
Some of these are hard to make out because of illegible signature style, but a list was provided. No written provenance from the promoter of the event, but a name of someone at "Big League Marketing" who supplied the bat.
Of course the bat may be a fake, in which case it doesn't count toward the debt. But let's assume it's not for the moment. Any thoughts from the Bat-Cave?
Obviously this bat must be sent to PSA/DNA before I can sell it and erase part of the debt, and the debtee knows that. Any idea how much it costs to authenticate a bat with 22 names? Any idea what the bat might sell for? You can tell I don't handle auto bats too much.
The sigs are Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, Roger Clemens, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, Jeff Nelson, Paul O'Neill, Shane Spencer, Chuck Knoblauch, Orlando Hernandez, Tino Martinez, David Cone, Jim Leyritz, Ramiro Mendoza, Chad Curtis, Scott Brosius, Jorge Posada, Chili Davis, Ricky Ledee, Luis Sojo, Darryl Strawberry.
Some of these are hard to make out because of illegible signature style, but a list was provided. No written provenance from the promoter of the event, but a name of someone at "Big League Marketing" who supplied the bat.
Of course the bat may be a fake, in which case it doesn't count toward the debt. But let's assume it's not for the moment. Any thoughts from the Bat-Cave?
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Comments
Dave
Dave
I diagree. SOME of the signatures look real to me and MIGHT be authentic. I also collect Yankees signatures and have a 1998 Yankees signed Steiner bat (limited to 125 for their number of wins in 1998) as well as a Goldin Sports (from SAH) autograhed baseball. The Rickey Ledee and Luis Sojo look like the autographs on my bat. I think I have gotten pretty good at detecting fakes but of course I am not 100% sure.
jrdolan.
Can you rotate the bat so I can see the Jeter signature?
gem10sports: You said Clemens is a fake. Which one is Clemens?
Also, I guess it can't be a "World Series" bat, because under David Cone it says "PE (or PG) 7-18-99"
Even if some of them ARE real, don't the fake ones make it worthless?
Here's a scan of the remaining side, with El Duque. I still don't see Jeter.
Jeter is a tough auto and not readable - you have him just to the right of the 33 IN - Professional Model
type on the bat - his auto looks like circles that interconnect with each other.
your friend
Mike
your friend
Mike
The one in blue is El Duke and the one to the left of El Duke is Chuck Knoblauch. Sorry, but happen to think they are real but obviously I am not 100% sure.
Gemmy, do you agree with gem10sports on others that he says are obviously fake?
Also, and I repeat, if some are real and some are forged, isn't the whole bat rendered sorta useless?
<< <i>The Joe Torre signature might be questionable >>
Gemmy
I agree...I can not judge autos but that one looks entirely different to the ones on the cards...for one thing Torre uses even spacing of his letters which is not evident on the bat.
As I said, the Jeter is to the right of the "professional model" type - here is a good exemplar:
your friend
Mike
I figured out what "PG 7-18-99" under Cone's sig means. PG = Perfect Game. I imagine he signed that way all year long after his Perfecto, so I guess it could have been signed after the Series.
The r's in Torre look a bit different on the bat than they do on the flat items. Do people sign a bit differently on a rounded surface like a bat?
Anyway, I don't want to spend $200 or whatever PSA/DNA will charge and have them say "Not Authentic."
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73391&item=5133223730&rd=1
I think the Jeter sig looks like it could be authentic. The Mariano looks good too.
You are right about the PG in Cone....I have seen him sign this way a lot for Steiner.
So we seem to have some difference of opinion. It now appears that at least some of these autos MAY be real. Would you invest the $$ to have PSA/DNA examine it? If even one name is deemed fake, will they reject the whole bat? You see my dilemma. Has anyone sent a multi-auto bat to them before?
Here is a good Clemens ball to view - psa/dna authenticated.
This is a tough bat...I think a lot of the sigs are real...so why forge the lesser people unless they were not all gotten at the same time and they figured no one would challenge a bat with bad common autos?
Might be worth calling PSA and ask them how much to authenticate the bat. But, I kind of feel like you that if any of them are bad, the whole bat is not worth/fair selling.
your friend
Mike
<< <i>what a way to pay off a debt, guess the call to the irs was fruitless? sorry u have to go thru all this to get your dough. >>
Yes, but better than nothing. And he's repaying with other goods that are already graded and authenticated. Not enough to cover the debt, I expect. As for the IRS, there is a whole lot more to that story now. It turns out I didn't know this person at all. Some bad history I should have known about before having any dealings with him.
Anyway, I agree with Stone. Why add fake Yankee autos to a bat that has real ones? Nobody is going to pay much for it without authentication. Much better to just leave it with the sigs that are real. This person knew I was going to send it to PSA/DNA and still gave it to me. I can add the PSA fee to the amount he owes me, but that's not much use if the bat is rejected.
What would an authenticated '99 Yankees bat go for?
<< <i>What would an authenticated '99 Yankees bat go for? >>
I don't know about the bats but the ball would be worth about 900$ for a regular ball and about 1300-1500$ for a WS ball. I wouldn't be surprised to see where the bat could be worth in the 2+ grand range if authenticated by PSA/DNA IMO.
your friend
Mike
I am an expert on Yankee signatures. I have been collecting them for over 30 years, in person. From Mantle, Maris, Munson, DiMaggio to Jeter, Soriano, when they were Norwich Navigators, here in Ct. where I live, to the present sigs of Yankee players I obtain on my yearly trips to Tampa. Steve Grad and Spence at PSA/DNA know Im top notch, as I have pointed out to them, some ways of spotting fake Yankee sigs. Im not here to be negative to anyone. I was just helping out jrdolan as he ask for. I wish I could of given you better news, but its not real. You would be wasting your money.
jrdolan- If you look at the first picture scan of bat you posted, Clemens is supposed to be in blue above Sojo in blue. Compare that to the Clemens on the baseball scan that was provided. It is noway real on bat.
.
<<I am an expert on Yankee signatures>>
Why don't you start an authentification service?
JR - how about sending scans to PSA for a quick opinion to start - they will hopefully let you know whether the bat is worth submitting.
Everyone take care and thanx
your friend
Mike
While there is disagreement about some of the autos, no one here is saying ALL of them look legit. I have a feeling that 22 sigs. on a bat is going to be pretty expensive to authenticate, and I suspect that even a single fake will ruin the whole bat. I'll send it back where it came from and ask for other, more salable goods.
Thanks all for your opinions. I wish words didn't get heated, but I think it's been a good discussion. Maybe somebody has read this and won't buy a fake Clemens auto, for example, as a result.
good luck though with whatever u decide to do.
as for psa/dna i have seen auctions where they have authenticated certain autos on an item and also deemed others as clubhouse etc.
IMO, someone legitimately obtained as many of the signatures as they could on this bat, and then just filled in the rest.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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Actually, I'm surprised PRO hasn't stuck its dirty little fingers into this pie yet. "Your sigs guaranteed authentic, or your money back!"
Uh oh. Maybe I shouldn't have said that.
<< <i>Nick and Gemmy .... would you mind making a hologram and COA for me? >>
I agree with the others - this is a dubious "mixed" bat. BTW, I, probably like others, have done reading on the subject of authenticity just for the pleasure of understanding. One of the things that the experts look for when they look at the signature "live" is the "intentional" slowly drawn lettering, atypical letter slanting, irregular letter shape and formation as well as irregualr overlapping of strokes, and irregular spacing between letters - also sizing of letters disproportionate/exaggerated/undersized e.g.
your friend
Mike
Link to real Jeter, Clemens auto
null
This is how Jeter, Clemens signed in 1999, 2000 to present day. As you can see they are nowhere near the sigs on the bat.
Gemmy10- The first thing I look at when I see a Yankee teamed signed item is the Jeter sig. People who forge these signatures can never seem to get it correct. There are certain keys spots that I look for, that Stone was correct on. Slants, pen flow, preasure points. etc. You can disagree with me, if you want, about the other autos on bat. I dont have time to get into every signature on the bat with you. But the sigs are way off. If the Jeter, Clemens, Torre, Pettitte- big name autos on bat are not legit, then the bat would never pass authenticity. Its Not real. Im 100% positive on that.
This post has gotten good. For those of you who do not know what goes into getting a signature PSA/DNA authenticated, heres what happens.
1. You give them your autograped item
2. They look at it. If they are familiar with it, they can usually tell right away. If they are not, they have examples of signatures on hand in there laptop computers. They try and match it up just like we are doing in this post. If it looks good, it passes. If it doesnt, it fails. There is nothing scientific about it. PRETTY SCARY HUH?
3. By law PSA/DNA cannot say an auto is forged or fake. They can only say it does not pass their authenticity. If it doesnt pass, they keep your money. Even if the auto is real. YES PSA/DNA makes mistakes. Im not saying they are not good at what they do, but theirs noway to be perfect., servuices
4. On their Letter Of Authenticity it states: Its in our opinion the auto's pen flow Mumbo Jumbo stuff.
The key is ITS OUR OPINION. Thats all it is, their opinion.
Because of the world we live in, full of people who want to scam others, services like this are needed. But people should not rely on this 100%. The best way is to get your auto in person yourself. Thats the only way to know100%. If you cant, find a dealer you can trust. They are out there. Ask questions, find out where, when, by who auto was obtained. Then you can use a service like PSA/DNA on top of that.
Upper Deck has the only fool proof authenticity I have seen. The pen cam auto. They give you a disk of your actual item being signed. Gemmy10 states he has a Steiner Auto Yankee piece. But thats not 100% I have seen Steiner pieces that are not legit. All it is is a certificate with a hologram on the item that can be removed. Gemmy10, In no way am I saying yours is not legit, so please dont come back at me with that. I would like to see a picture of it, if you have one available.
This is just the sports memorabilia business.
I hope I have given you some insight on this.
Dave
So here's an idea. Create a three day listing, BIN $5000, incorporate the multiple scans, then invoke the PSA/DNA quick opinion option and see what happens. Have your debtor pay the listing and opinion fees. Regards.
Here are photos of my Jeter jersey and a portion of the bat. The shots of the Jeter signature on the jersey came out a little blurry because of the glass in the display case:
You know, guys, I really wasn't trying to start a fight over who knows Yankee autos best. I admit that I know them worst, not being an auto collector (other than Bench, of which I have about two dozen authenticated). As for the Yanks, those guys should write more legibly!
<< <i>You know, guys, I really wasn't trying to start a fight over who knows Yankee autos best. I admit that I know them worst, not being an auto collector (other than Bench, of which I have about two dozen authenticated). As for the Yanks, those guys should write more legibly! >>
JR
It's all in good fun.
BTW, the Sox won tonite with 4 errors again - perhaps this is their year!
Take care
your friend
Mike
Dave
Do the Jeter signatures on the bat and jersey look real to you? They do to me. I also have a Yankee UD Master Collection Jeter auto card as well as a Joe DiMaggio Commemorative baseball (Goldin Sports) signed by the 1998 Yankees, and both of the Jeter signatures look like the jersey and bat.
Dave
1999 WS 16x20 photograph which is one of myt favorites since it's done in
Silver Sharpie which looks real neat. It's also Goldin. I probably got ripped
off from SAH because I was naive at the time and didn't know about eBay.
I think I paid $900. Are Goldin's pieces always legit? Signatures look the
same as my bat, jersey, and baseball.
My kids got Mariano's signature on a official MLB baseball at Yankee stadium
as well as Steve Karsay.
My daughter and son would love to meet and get Derek Jeter's autograph someday
but I never see him giving autos at Yankee stadium. Do you know if he does?
My friend lives in Tampa and in 1997 we went to a Spring Training game. It seems
like it is a lot eaier to get autos there as players are more relaxed but Spring Training
does not coincide with my children's spring break.
I never see Jeter sign too much at Yankee stadium. If he does its only a few. He does sign quite a few down in Tampa. He is very nice and handles the fans great. Mariano is always signing. Hes great. Arod is the worst! I also attend a Yankee luncheon every year down in Tampa. Its very hectic, but I enjoy it and get great sigs. Even there Arod has a puss on his face. Prob cause its for charity, and hes not getting paid for his oh so precious auto! LOL!!! It used to be great in Tampa, but every year it gets harder and harder to get signatures. Not like the old time Yankee greats! Its a great vacation for me and I love collecting autos. Its cool because you can be out to dinner and Jeter can be a few booths away from you. You see alot of Yankees out and about. I never bother them out away from the field though. Its their time.
Dave
As for the suspect bat, it's going back to its owner. Thanks for the comments, everyone.