The ultimate desireable state of a coin-what is it?

laurentyvan

After seeing all the beautiful contributions to the Darkside Color thread I had to ask myself if this was not the ultimate desireable state for a coin or medal- to be toned by forces as basic as Time and Nature. And if the toning be pleasing, either demure and shy or vibrant and bold, should it not then be allowed to jump to a loftier state? And is that not what is occuring in the marketplace today?

I like a blast white coin, but when properly colored with mother nature's patina, I consider it a finished work of art. The texture, engraving, raised devices, all are brought into focus when a coin is attractively toned. On very white proofs I have trouble making out interesting detail; when the same coin is toned just right, it offers the viewer a completely different aspect of itself.

I am delighted at the idea of multiples of a nice coin, side by side, all obviously different and attractively toned. I have been buying some very nice early 1900's 3 pence in UNC with wonderful toning-blues, violets, red and orange, colors intertwined in leaves and wreaths, all little gems of coruscating color.

I still read a lot from collectors who don't appreciate toning of any kind but I'm beginning to think that such a coin is in its infancy, with unrealized potential.

All coins are created equally but some more equally than others-George Orwell said that...

boz

There were some great coins shown. I only wish my photographic skills could show a couple of mine. But alas

Sylvestius

Toning is corrosion therefore a bad thing. Be it oxidisation or whatever.

But if it is toned then it's got to be even and some shade of grey, definately nothing that looks colourful. Cos to me most really colourfully toned coins even the natural ones just look AT to me. Anything with orange, powerful magenta or really deep blue just looks plain AT. I'll not mention purple or gods forbid anything green.

White is very good but dull old slate grey is the best. To me the pinnacle of toned coins are those that can be photographed in Greyscale and show not much difference to when they're photo-ed in colour.

laurentyvan

White is very good but dull old slate grey is the best.

Yes, but Sylvestius, you collect coins on the order of 400-500 years old and older; it doesn't make you suspicious that these coins haven't toned to black? Do you prefer a well-cleaned coin to a naturally toned colorful coin?

MacCrimmon

<< <i>The ultimate desireable state of a coin-what is it? >>



It's what makes you, the collector, happy!!


Colours, rainbows?? Experience can tell with 95% certainty that something is natural, and most likely the normal progression is a type of rainbow, etc. It's simply physics. I don't know that any silver tends toward a uniform grey naturally (there's a good thread somewhere on the Lightside about oxidation progressions), unless it's been stripped of oxides repeatedly. I say this because most of the silvery-grey patinated pieces I've seen are lacking in lustre. A high grade coin (gEF or better) will have lustre regardless of the degree of toning, unless of course it's gone near near black. In that case it is truly a corrosive situation and/or the dreaded BB description of "Environmental Damage".

I think it's instructive to view the early milled silver pieces from C2 to G2 which can be seen on DNW's or Spink's website. Many of these high grade specimens which can be pedigreed back to famous collections of the early-mid 1800s have a tendency toward the varying pastel palettes of light cobalt blue, magenta covering chianti reds with a tad of green thrown in for good measure. IMHO, these coins are as pure as the driven snow in their originality......well, that's my 8 farthings, as it were.

cosmicdebris

See my Gothic Florin or the 2 Lire in the Color thread.

laurentyvan

I don't know that any silver tends toward a uniform grey naturally

Mac, one small run of silver Egyptian piastres from 1917 I have put together in XF all have a very attractive grey patina and I've seen turn of the century British double florins with the same toning. Grey is, after all, a color.

Many of these high grade specimens which can be pedigreed back to famous collections of the early-mid 1800s have a tendency toward the varying pastel palettes of light cobalt blue, magenta covering chianti reds with a tad of green thrown in for good measure. IMHO, these coins are as pure as the driven snow in their originality......well, that's my 8 farthings, as it were.

Couldn't agree more!

boz

<< <i>Toning is corrosion >>



That's correct. But everything in life is subject to a form of corrosion.
A coin that is toned/corroded can and is a beautiful thing at times. It's a personal matter of taste, but a natural extant of life.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>I don't know that any silver tends toward a uniform grey naturally ... >>



Yes, more precisely what I intended was in the absense of circulation, or very much of it. I would suppose there is a different dynamic in play when the coin is circulated down to VF to the EF range, and that would be the surface reactions involved when skin oils are introduced to the silver surfaces. This would start to be as predictable as to what might happen toning-wise, as say trying to figure out the causes of certain cancers.....i.e., too many unknown co-factors.

Actually, I have an unc. 1840 shilling which has that moderate to deep silvery-grey (and darn near impossible to image) patina sitting on prooflike surfaces, but other colours can be seen also.

Also, of note in the oxidation process is the purity of the silver in the coin. I'd bet that the lower the silver content, or uniformity of the alloying, that yes, these lighter grays advancing to the slate greys tend to become more natural in and of themselves without any reactions due to foreign substances.

What were the silver contents (%) of pre-milled silver versus milled coinage in England? I don't have a Coincraft.....and then, you have to consider the debasement with many Monarchs....

syraq

But if it is toned then it's got to be even and some shade of grey, definately nothing that looks colourful. Cos to me most really colourfully toned coins even the natural ones just look AT to me. Anything with orange, powerful magenta or really deep blue just looks plain AT. I'll not mention purple or gods forbid anything green.



Sylvestius, you crack me up.How about British racing green?

Sylvestius

<< <i>But if it is toned then it's got to be even and some shade of grey, definately nothing that looks colourful. Cos to me most really colourfully toned coins even the natural ones just look AT to me. Anything with orange, powerful magenta or really deep blue just looks plain AT. I'll not mention purple or gods forbid anything green.



Sylvestius, you crack me up.How about British racing green? >>



If you want green it's got to be Brunswick.

No i'nm just voicing the opinion of quite a few younger members of the UK collecting community, in general we don't like coins with colour. Infact conversly to all arguments put forth , i having observed hundreds and thousands of silver coins from the UK over the last 15 years come across white/grey ones all the time. I rarely if ever come across a brightly colourfully toned specimen whilst browsing through the coin shops. The only rainbow toners i've ever come across are the occasional hammered ones, some few milled ones but they tend to just be one colour or another. Rainbow toning and monster toning is not common at all. I'm wondering if it's 1) silver purity differences .900/.925 which creates the difference in toning between US/UK coins. 2) The way you guys store them.

The tradition in England is to put most coins in cabinets.

1jester

I wonder if the atmospheric conditions in England might also have a great influence on the way coins there tone.

I've seen vibrant rainbow colors on uncirculated medieval coins, on proof-like surfaces with tons of luster; I don't think these particular coins are AT. They are, admittedly, rare though. Much more common is the gray that Silvestius is referring to; however, I don't run across too many uncirculated medieval coins, so circulation itself, as Mac mentions, most probably alters the way toning affects a coin.

I hate AT, by the way.

topstuf

The ULTIMATE condition is just before the die rises above the freshly struck planchet (now a coin).
The ULTIMATE PROBLEM is that it is so hard to slab a coin while still in the press.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>The ULTIMATE PROBLEM is that it is so hard to slab a coin while still in the press. >>

You have to let it cool down first.

Sylvestius

<< <i>
The ULTIMATE PROBLEM is that it is so hard to slab a coin while still in the press.

>>



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