How to Lose a Customer 101

jvineyard

I just need to vent.

I buy a lot of PSA Saints cards in addition to the sets I'm working on. I tend to spend somewhat freely, especially with a small group of dealers that I buy from regularly. Many of those dealers have begun offering me Saints cards before listing them on ebay, and I appreciate that and will keep buying from those dealers.

But one large volume ebay dealer has a very different view of customer service. Over the past six months I have averaged over $1,000 a month in purchases from them. But over the past 60 days I've noticed a pricing pattern that was beginning to really irritate me. They were consistantly pricing Saints cards higher than similar cards in the same sets/grades/population. They were also setting Buy it Now prices consistantly higher for Saints cards. I noticed, but continued to buy from them, though I passed on several that were outrageously priced.

Today was the last (and most obvious) straw. They listed a group of low pop 1984 Topps FB:

Steve Largent PSA 10 49.95/75.00 BIN

Ozzie Newsome PSA 10 1/2 75/100 BIN

Mike Webster PSA 10 1/1 100/150 BIN

John Riggins PSA 10 1/1 100/150

Franco Harris PSA 10 1/1 100/150

Eric Dickerson PSA 10 1/1 100/150

Curt Warner PSA 10 1/2 150/200

and the last straw

Ricky Jackson PSA 10 1/1 199.95/300


Other than gouging a regular, repeat customer, I can't see how that pricing makes any sense whatsoever. And that is how a dealer can lose a regular repeat customer. I don't care if that dealer has a close out sale at 1.00 a card, I will never buy another card from them.

Sorry for the rant.

Vargha

Pretty stupid to be that obvious, huh?

sjeanblanc

Hi John,

Let me guess, 4_Sharpcorners.

Scott J.

jimtb

Hi John,
I buy a lot of cards (Trammell) from 4 sharp as well. I saw the prices begin to tick upward, and held off bidding. For me, it's no big deal because there is limited demand for these cards. Often, they go unsold, he relists them cheaper, and then I bid. He really isn't doing right by us, but we don't have to buy anything from him. The market will ultimately control the prices. I guess my only advice is to be patient.
Jim

jvineyard

That's the approach I have been taking - just being patient and waiting for the price to drop. But this just set me off, and there are too many dealers that do treat us well to be giving money to those that don't.

thefootballcardstore

<< <i>Ricky Jackson PSA 10 1/1 199.95/300 >>



At first I thought maybe he was a Heisman winner, HOFer, etc and then I thought - no he isn't.

But my advice has been to wait, just wait. 6 months, a year from now.
Now, if it comes down to it . . .I will make that anonymous bid if someone insists. Don't worry John, I will be taking this lesson to heart. And thanks for posting about it,

Jeremy

Buccaneer

<< <i>But my advice has been to wait, just wait. 6 months, a year from now - that card will be nowhere near that opening price much less that BIN.
>>



Jeremy, would you give that sensible advice to many cards (including vintage bb) that have appeared on eBay?

cspeier1

I currently buy from both said dealers. The one jvineyard is talking about and Jeremy at TFCS. I also must agree with John. I purchase Dorsett and Largent cards from dealerx and have noticed the prices are higher than when I first started buying them. Don't get me wrong, it's my choice but I think they take advantage. I also must add, I've never dealt with anyone as honest as Jermey at TFCS. He knows how to keep business. He knows the market and he'll tell you his opinion. I for one appreciate that type of honesty.

Chad

thefootballcardstore

I wish I knew more about BB.

I guess I would have to say, it depends on a lot - but I really can't make a blanket statement like that about vintage.
Vintage (say pre-72) is very different, and studying the pop report compared to other cards that year should be a determining factor.
Where a card was on a sheet makes a big difference in vintage card to card in a set. I also track how many cards have been submitted month over month for each set which tells me how much raw might still be out there.

But I'd better stop before I get myself in trouble. One day I'll list a card with a high price and this thread will come back and bite me. But one thing I won't do is . . .and I'll use a term one of my customers uses . . .is "hold a card hostage" or target one person with a price that is way out of line.

Jeremy

Fabfrank

I also buy from both 4 Sharp and TFCS and have never had a problem. My only thinking in the defense of 4 sharp is when the R. Jackson card graded. As everyone has mentioned, they'll start auctions of high and drop the price over the coming weeks till the card sells.
Jvineyard comparisons would be valid if that Jackson has been available for awhile (I know the other lower priced cards have been available for weeks). If the R. Jackson card is a new 1/1, than that's just that dealers starting point. You could contact him directly and make an offer or wait till the price comes down.
I wouldn't take it personally John. I've dealt with the people at 4 sharp for a few years. The've grown to the point that it's easier to post the cards and let the market decide their value rather than contacting people directly.

thefootballcardstore

Thanks Chad, I very much appreciate the compliment. I enjoy your business as well. (BTW PM sent)
Like I think I've posted before, I may not be wholesale, but I am definitely not as high as some retail that's out there.
And I try to do what's right for us, the market and especially the consumer. Grossly overpricing cards is only good for one of those components.

Jeremy

JonB

I think it basically comes down to a very simple point, if you don't like the price on ebay, then don't buy it.

I have bought probably 50 cards from 4sharp over the past 6 months, and have never had a problem (other than one that I am currently awaiting a response back on. They sent me a 1983 Nolan Ryan #360 OPC PSA 10, instead of the Topps version). I usually pick up cards from them for less than SMR, and on the ones that I pay SMR, or a touch more for, are cards with extremely low pops. I don't mind paying $30 or $40 for a 90's PSA 10 Ryan card. Even though the pop right now might only be 2 or 3, there are thousands out there that could grade that. The problem is that if i sent in the same card to PSA, 9 times out of 10 it would probably only come back as a PSA 9, instead of a 10. So I save myself the trouble, time, and cost of having to submit 4 or 5 (or more) of the same card to get a PSA 10.

just my 2 cents worth

NickM

If no one buys it, eventually 4_sharp will come down in price. I picked up a '92 Bowman Fisk PSA 10 from them for $5. My guess is that it started out at $50 for the BIN and kept dropping when no one bid.

Nick

jvineyard

I agree 100%. I don't like the price - I won't buy the product.

And Jeremy, you're one of the good guys that I actually enjoy buying from.

ctsoxfan

Interesting point about 4sharp...I noticed the same thing about cards I often buy from them, but never thought there was a pattern to it. Nick is right though, some of his crazy opening bids go unsold, and just get relisted and relisted again (at a lower number) until someone bites.

goodriddance189

for all you conspiracy theorists out there....how the hell does 4_S_C turn a profit these days? they made a killing a few years back submitting crap cards that no one bothered grading and passing them off as low pop. but those days are long since over. the '80's market is far past oversaturation (for baseball at least), and now most 10's are barely selling for over grading fees. he's recently started submitting a ton of '90's and modern star cards, with most 9's selling for $2 and most 10's selling for $10-$15.

isn't the minimum charge for grading $5 at the lowest service level? how can he turn a profit selling hundreds of $5 slabs for $2?

cspeier1

Did anyone else get a flyer with the last card they purchased from 4 sharp? If not, it basically says to tell them what you like. They will drop you a email before it goes to Ebay. It also says," If there is a SET, TEAM, or PLAYER that you collect, or want to collect, LET US KNOW! Call and talk to Stan or Roger. You must admit, seems there trying to go the extra mile.

Chad

RobE

I ran into Roger at the 04 National.All I gatherelse from our conversation back then is he's just trying to make money like anybody else in this business/hobby.Nothing wrong with that.If you don't like the price you know by now in a week or two he'll come down or another will come up at a reasonable price from him.Espically on the 80s and up.

Recently,I've had a problem with a couple purchases from Roger.They sent me a 9 instead of a 10 and forgot to ship out another 10 that came from another ID.We've been on the phone all day last Monday and we're still in progress with fixing the matter.Mr and (?) Mrs.Rumsey have been great to talk to correct the problem and make it right.

I have 100% faith in doing good business with them.Every card has been a beauty,I can't complain.The prices are high for the most part but they occasionally have a great deal on the same card running on another ID and that's what you have to look for.

Jvineyard,I know what it's like from a few dealers who knew if I was in need of the cards they had that I was going to pay a premium here and there.The good thing was that I didn't have to bust the arse to locate what I was looking for and the few extra bucks locked another card in that was needed.Also some of those very dealers cut me some awesome breaks taking into consideration I gave them so much business in their favor.Didn't have to ask either,they just offered me super prices.Hopefully,you and Roger will be able to continue doing business and the occasional deal will work in your favor here and there.

jimtb

I also should say that i've had nothing but great service from 4 sharp. No issues, fast mailings, combines shipping, and great cards. If the price is too high, I just don't bid. Can't blame the guys for trying to maximize their profits...

Ironmanfan

Trying to "maximize profits" & keep solid customer relations are two separate & distinct issues............

roastedcat

Hey John,

How do you like the Dinosaur set you bought from me... Your sure to get an award for this set this year. LOL!!!

Jery

jvineyard

My 7 year old daughter loves it - almost as much as her Disney set. I'm sure she'll have a blast with the certificate.

sixdart

If anyone needs to contact 4 Sharp Corners, here is the current phone number for both Stan & Roger ... (508) 339-1663. Their PayPal customer service number is incorrect and it's in the process of being updated. The female answering the phone is Roger's sister ... I believe?

They mixed up my last Ebay order as well. It appears that winning auctions from their main Ebay account and secondary Ebay accounts causes confusion? When I spoke to Roger about the shipping mishap, he mentioned they've doubled their operation and are using a new system - which has a few bugs. The other issue is they never answer e-mails?!

And, I vote for Jeremy as well!!!!

jrdolan

I too have bought many cards from 4_sharp_corners, and I've learned to wait them out on those not-so-popular cards that won't sell in the first couple times through eBay. Roger will give you a heads-up on stuff you want before putting it on eBay, but you'll have to pay just about the high BIN price he would have listed for it. I just politely decline and wait, unless it's something my friends on the registries will bid up.

They do turn over an ungodly number of PSA 10's. They must go through vending cases like water. As somebody said, with many PSA 10's going for little more than the grading fee, and PSA 9's going for $2 + shipping, you'd think they would be more selective about what they send to PSA.

SDavid

how the hell does 4_S_C turn a profit these days? they made a killing a few years back submitting crap cards that no one bothered grading and passing them off as low pop. but those days are long since over. the '80's market is far past oversaturation (for baseball at least), and now most 10's are barely selling for over grading fees. he's recently started submitting a ton of '90's and modern star cards, with most 9's selling for $2 and most 10's selling for $10-$15.

I've noticed that Tuttle hasn't been selling nearly as many 80's and 90's cards the last few months under his jtcards/xpsagrader id's. I'm sure DSL and 4-Sharp are still making a profit or they wouldn't be doing it, but, like you said, the market for these cards obviously isn't what it used to be. Maybe they have to set high prices to make not only a profit but a living?

At some point in the not too distant future, I really think the hobby will return full circle to the days when dealers had to profit by buying collections in bulk and reselling them versus buying ungraded/unopened material and slabbing it.