Ebay has no concern for victims of fraudulent auctions

K6AZ

A few days ago we had some fun with the fraud who ran the auction for a proof 1895 Morgan Dollar. I knew it was a fraud and used BIN to end the auction and play with the fraudster. Ebay was notified before the auction ended that this guy was a fraud. Now suppose I wasn't aware it was a fraud and sent the guy the $10k. Ebay, in it's infinite wisdom, is now nuking auctions after they have ended. In this case, over two days past the end of the auction. What good does this do? Seems to me it makes it even more difficult to pursue a scammer who was successful in extracting money from the victim.

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 01:53:58 -0700
From: endofauction@ebay.com
To: posting@k6az.com
Subject: eBay Item Purchase: IMMACULATE 1895 MORGAN DOLLAR .... GOLD COIN (Item #3934140700)
X-eBay-MailTracker: 10013.375.0.39466


Congratulations xxxxx!


Dear xxxxx,
You have agreed to purchase the following eBay item from antique-buyer (xxx - xxx, MO United States) using Buy It Now on Oct-06-04 01:53:51 PDT:


IMMACULATE 1895 MORGAN DOLLAR .... GOLD COIN - Item #3934140700

Please review the seller's payment instructions below. The seller accepts cashier's check/money order


Always Pay Safely - Marketplace Safety Tips




Payment details:
Item price: US $10,000.00

Quantity: 1

Subtotal: US $10,000.00*

* Not including shipping charges
Payment instructions from seller:
[None specified]


Ship-to zip code: 23113

If zip code is incorrect, please notify the seller and update for your future purchases.



You may also contact the seller via email to complete the sale at xxx@xxx.com. If contacting the seller directly, please do so within 3 business days. You should send payment directly to the seller.




This item can be viewed for up to 90 days at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3934140700&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
============================================================================================================================
To: posting@k6az.com
From: ended@ebay.com
Subject: eBay Auction 3934140700 Cancelled - Results Null and Void
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 15:39:13 PDT



Dear Eric Tillery (posting@k6az.com),

Please be aware that auction:

3934140700 - IMMACULATE 1895 MORGAN DOLLAR .... GOLD COIN

in which you were a bidding participant, has been ended early by eBay for violating one or more of our listing guidelines.

Because the auction was ended early, you as a bidder are not required to complete the transaction.

If you care to review our listing guidelines for a better understanding of our auction policies, they can be found at:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-ov.html

Please feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns you may have on our existing policies.

Regards,
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
eBay

mrearlygold

Whew.........


Buy with confidence huh?


Tom

magikbilly

Bidding on an item you know to be fraudulent is a no-no regardless. For what it is worth: (although I have used this info, properly, to provide an out for myself as a buyer).

User Agreement sections 9c, Breach: “we believe that your actions may cause financial loss or legal liability for you, our users or us.”, and 6.2, Restricted Activities: “Furthermore, you may not list any item on the site (or consummate any transaction that was initiated using our service) that, by paying to us the listing fee or the final value fee, could cause us to violate any applicable law, statute, ordinance or regulation, or that violates our current Prohibited, Questionable and Infringing Items.”

Best,
Billy

K6AZ

Excuse me? Where does that say you can't bid on an auction if you suspect it is fraudulent? Before copying and pasting AUPs, how about reading them first.

TUMUSS

Ebay is trying to use the "we only provided an auction site" excuse as long as possible. It will only be when they start losing law suits when they will step up to the plate of responsibility.

K6AZ

I think the Tiffany suit is going to be the end of the "venue" defense for eBay. It will be interesting to see how that unfolds.

ElectricEye

Notice how short-lived the "you won't get E-screwed" commercials were? Probably got a good deal of flack for running them.

magikbilly

<< <i>Excuse me? Where does that say you can't bid on an auction if you suspect it is fraudulent? Before copying and pasting AUPs, how about reading them first. >>



Eric,
I responded without knowing it was you - I am not looking to bark up your tree as you did mine. You deliberately used BIN to purchase an item you know to be a fraud in order to "play". AKA - you placed a bid knowing that "your actions (in this case BIN) may cause financial loss or legal liability for you, our users (in this case liability for the seller) or us". If there was no "liability" why "play" - where is the fun? That is breach of the user agreement. I did not cut and paste without reading - actually I quoted a letter I wrote and have used during rare problematic transactions such as when an item I won is not as represented or worse. Perhaps it is how you read the rules, but I think it allows me to choose not to engage in any transaction that could cause problems for the buyer, seller and eBay. Perhaps I am wrong, and I am no lawyer, but I find this little rule under-rated and handy. If you want to pick on me, why don't you go and see if the rules have been changed as my letter must be over a year old (but it worked on the rare occasions I have had to use it).

Best to you,
Billy

K6AZ

Again, you may have read it, but what you are missing is that section pertains to sellers. I bid and challenged the seller to produce proof of title to the coin, which he could not do. I was not in violation of their policy.

magikbilly

<< <i>Again, you may have read it, but what you are missing is that section pertains to sellers. I bid and challenged the seller to produce proof of title to the coin, which he could not do. I was not in violation of their policy. >>




"Your Information/Restricted Activities" - this applies to both buyers and sellers, as did the other info (listing and selling is covered under 5 to 5.5 is it not? The info I gave before is from 9 Breach which specifically addresses both bids placed and listings - that would be both sellers and buyers, no?). Anyway - this is 6.2, and it applies to you I think -

6.2 Restricted Activities. Your Information (or any items listed) and your activities on the Site shall not: (a) be false, inaccurate or misleading; (b) be fraudulent or involve the sale of counterfeit or stolen items...."


Best,
Billy

PS - please tell me where I am getting this wrong if I am. How did you determine that this information only applies to the seller?

K6AZ

You're missing the whole point of this thread, and arguing a technicality. In my six years of being involved on eBay, I have never heard of this part of the AUP (or previous versions of it) being applied to a bidder. And for every bidder like me who goes into a fraudulent auction knowing or highly suspecting it is a fraud, there are probably 100 that go into fraud auctions not having the slightest clue, and get taken for tremendous amounts of money. I read on a computer board I frequent that the dollar amount of fraud just in bogus laptop sales amounts to several million dollars monthly. The point of this thread is that for the unsuspecting victims of eBay fraud, they bid on a fraudulent auction, send the money, the scammer runs with the money, and eBay washes their hands of it by nuking the fraudulent auction out of their database. There is something seriously wrong with this in my opinion.

magikbilly

<< <i>You're missing the whole point of this thread, and arguing a technicality. In my six years of being involved on eBay, I have never heard of this part of the AUP (or previous versions of it) being applied to a bidder. And for every bidder like me who goes into a fraudulent auction knowing or highly suspecting it is a fraud, there are probably 100 that go into fraud auctions not having the slightest clue, and get taken for tremendous amounts of money. I read on a computer board I frequent that the dollar amount of fraud just in bogus laptop sales amounts to several million dollars monthly. The point of this thread is that for the unsuspecting victims of eBay fraud, they bid on a fraudulent auction, send the money, the scammer runs with the money, and eBay washes their hands of it by nuking the fraudulent auction out of their database. There is something seriously wrong with this in my opinion. >>



Eric,

I have no disagreement with you re fraud on eBay, and I understand this thread. But - remember when you scolded me for posting a post about OT posts saying that was no way to stop OT posts? You also were kind enough to let me know that as I am here only 3 months I should not be "deciding" what is OT right after you posted the same complaint about OT posts. Well, with that in mind - perhaps bidding in a fraudulent auction is no way to go about stopping fraudulent auctions, in as much as it is against the User Agreement to do it this way. Yes, to my knowledge it does apply as I have indicated - if it did not you would be telling me so right now. Unless you are going to start trying again to tell me what I can say, where and how again..I think my point is made. Lets agree to "disagree" on how to interpret those rules.

Best to you,
Billy

K6AZ

I'm not going to get into an argument over technicalities. The bottom line here is that eBay is facilitating scammers by nuking these auctions. Forget the auction I bid on, and go over to the eBay Trust and Safety board and read the horror stories of people who have been ripped off on laptops, camcorders and plasma TVs, and got no help from eBay, then ebay slapped them in the face by pulling the ended auctions.

Bochiman

Billy,

What point are you trying to get across?
You seem to like technicalities and complaining dude.

Eric bid with BIN and won. It was a SCAM. It was a SCAM before he BINed.
Would you rather he NOT have done that and some unsuspecting fool "won" the auction and got SCAMmed?

How would YOU handle it?

Sometimes, the end DOES justify the means. If that is the case, screw the technicalities. If you want every i dotted and every t crossed, well, you are a special case (and, your incessant infatuation with the wooden boxes is certainly proof of that ).

Now, if you feel the right thing was done, then, just end the argument with Eric and don't worry about who gets the last word (let it be me with this post). Once you have been around, lurking/posting, for awhile, you will see a good number of people who are great at helping and sharing knowledge and who also are upfront about trying to bust/stop SCAMs and SCAMmers.

To those people, I applaud them. If you want to harass them or drown them in technicalities, I would ask "why?"

So, everyone, have a good weekend, and don't get SCAMmed

Ron

TUMUSS

I see this to be a proper annalogy: Eric is saying: If I see an old lady across the street getting mugged - I will rush over to help her!
Billy is saying: BUT it is J-Walking crossing the street like that.


Sorry...but I say to hell with the J-Walking statute. BTW Eric....FINE job with the Morgan scammer

K6AZ

<< <i>I see this to be a proper annalogy: Eric is saying: If I see an old lady across the street getting mugged - I will rush over to help her!
Billy is saying: BUT it is J-Walking crossing the street like that. >>








<< <i>Sorry...but I say to hell with the J-Walking statute. BTW Eric....FINE job with the Morgan scammer >>



Thanks.

magikbilly

<< <i>I see this to be a proper annalogy: Eric is saying: If I see an old lady across the street getting mugged - I will rush over to help her!
Billy is saying: BUT it is J-Walking crossing the street like that.


Sorry...but I say to hell with the J-Walking statute. BTW Eric....FINE job with the Morgan scammer >>





Hi there,
You can make whatever "annalogy" you want. However, you can't presume to know my intentions in this discussion. To assume I am making any point other than that what Eric did is against his eBay User Agreement is incorrect. As incorrect as his initial assertion that the User Agreement information quoted did not apply to him. You do not have the context for this "discussion" - he lectured me and scolded me for the same damn thing quite recently - his position was basically that 2 wrongs do not make a right. After realizing, to my dismay, that he was the author of this thread, I thought I would remind him of that, as it seems to be the "logic" here. I am not discussing the "end" at all. If you think I am trying to ensure the "old lady gets mugged" you are sorely mistaken. The "last word" is available to whoever the heck wants it.

Best to you,
Billy

PS - My wood "campaign" was mentioned. Sincere apologies to all those who don't appreciate my efforts to protect all our coins by looking into a wooden box that was not even tested before marketing. The accelerated tests are only NOW being done after others and I wrote HRH and many threads concerning this potential. I have received a few "thank you" PM's and support from others collectors in the CUF - that's enough for me. Now we have the L&C Pouch thing - perhaps more people will educate themselves further regarding the proper storage of coins. That is my goal there.

K6AZ

You just killed your own argument by admitting this is sour grapes, and not over an eBay related thread, but by you posting off topic threads here. I've taken it easy on you so far, but if you keep this up I may not be so nice. It's obvious to me that you don't understand the section of the AUP you are quoting. Now kindly stick to the issue of eBay sweeping fraudulent auctions under the rug.

Bochiman

billy, is your real name "Ralph Nader" and you feel everything is an agenda and you are the superhero to others?
Yes...you did "good" with your crusade and you are on to your next one, but after awhile, it gets old when it is the same old thing to the same audience.
I guess everyone has to have their "thing" and I guess yours is "protecting others", "posting technicalities", "writing essays when a few words would suffice", and maybe blaming storage of coins"?

Anyway...everyone has a good weekend. Work has been busy, I've got some nickels rolls to send out through the PO tomorrow for some trades, and it is "free dumb day" in town and I still have had a lot of garbage left by the previous owner I am hauling out. So, time to get a few hours of sleep.

More coins...more coin knowledge, more coin pics!!!!
Less about storage

magikbilly

<< <i>It's obvious to me that you don't understand the section of the AUP you are quoting. >>



Eric,
I took your challenge and asked eBay Live Help. You are completely wrong - it is indeed in direct violation of the agreement as stated previously. More in the PM I sent you.

Best,
Billy

PS - NOO Bochiman, I am not Ralph Nader LOL. I am not a crusader or superhero (no cape). And I agree about eBay fraud and what they are doing about it. Terrible. Now, call this discussion "sour grapes" if you like to - the "story" is above for those who wish to see. This would be dropped already if Eric did not challenge me to ask about his bid as he was SO CERTAIN he was correct he felt the need to "insult" me (no, I am not crying ) And no, this is not a "new crusade" - I am nowhere near done with the wood boxes yet I am laboring under the notion that relevant information about coin storage is at least as important as "coin knowledge" & "coin pics!!!" Maybe more so. BTW, what did you mean by "blaming coin storage? And, good luck with "free dumb day" And yes, I am done with this.

K6AZ

Yes, and you conveniently left out a few facts. Like eBay suspended the guy right after I bid on the auction. It wasn't until he started sending me email after email that I decided to play with him, after he was suspended. So if you want to play technicalities, eBay had no say in my interaction with him since they had suspended him.

Now take your sour grapes somewhere else.

magikbilly

<< <i>Yes, and you conveniently left out a few facts. Like eBay suspended the guy right after I bid on the auction. It wasn't until he started sending me email after email that I decided to play with him, after he was suspended. So if you want to play technicalities, eBay had no say in my interaction with him since they had suspended him.

Now take your sour grapes somewhere else. >>



I will go elsewhere, but not before saying what happened after you placed your bid is irrelevant - the discussion does not get that far. The placement of the bid was the violation as you stated you knew the auction was a fraud. Yes, at this stage, this is a technical point - but you insisted you were correct - wouldn't want you operating with misinformation so I shared what I learned at your suggestion. So bad?

And, don't threaten me in PM's pal wouldn't bother even with this response but for your "threat".

K6AZ

Perhaps if you went and read the other thread you would get the idea.

And as far as PMs, if you don't want to be told off don't start harassing people by PM.

This entire bit of yours in this thread is sour grapes over being told you posted an off topic thread. Now if you want to escalate this, go for it.

mrearlygold

Good job Eric


Tom

Dog97

Lots of good eBay is. I guess if K6AZ had been an honest unsuspecting buyer and sent payment promptly the seller would have already had 2 days to take the $$ & run by the time eBay notified him that he didn't have to pay.

So I guess to protect myself from sleazeBay fraud when I win an auction instead of paying propmptly I should wait a couple of days to see if eBay is going to to tell me <<<are not required to complete the transaction.>>>

What I find amusing is that magikbilly is wasting a lot of keystrokes defending the fake Proof Morgan seller. Why? Was he the seller?

bigtonydallas

First of all this should be out in the open forum as it very loosely relates to coins! Maybe this site needs to create an Ebay message board. Take your arguement out side boys!

K6AZ

Off topic? Attempted $10k fraud by listing a proof 95 Morgan is not on topic here? Wow, I'm glad you set me straight!

/sarcasm

eagle7

I think it is a dangerous game to play, to just do things like bidding on the auction in question, because you want to "protect someone from losing some money". The folks at EBAY are responsible parties, they can afford their own lawyers for any thing that comes their way. They also are very successful at what they do. They must be doing something right. There are also agencies and people out there whose responsibilities it is to protect others from con artists. But the crime has to be committed before they can act. Why dont you people who dog EBAY just bow out and quit using EBAY all together. You wont do that because there is no alternative to using their service. Any one who does not have sense enough to know that the auction in question was a scam does not need you do gooders help. They need other help which you cannot give. Your do gooding will get you in big trouble if you are not very careful. I think a wiser course would be to keep your mouths shut and your bidding confined to something you really want to buy.

Dog97

I've done the same thing that K6AZ did in bidding on scam auctions.
<<<Your do gooding will get you in big trouble if you are not very careful.>>>
So what kind of trouble can I get in???
The answer is.....NONE!!!

eagle7

Well, I dont know about you Dog97. But I do know that K6AZ has already gotten himself into a lawsuit by doing some other things which are similar. You both can do as you please, however I am entitled to my own opinion and I will express it. As for me and my business dealings, I have no problem with EBAY at all. And I dont bid on auctions knowing that I do not intend to pay, just to play some kind of silly and dangerous game. JMHO

K6AZ

Oh boy, here we go again. Some of you just insist on bringing that lawsuit up as a weapon, even though you have no idea of the truth.

By using that tactic, the rest of what you have to say isn't worth replying to.

Dog97

eagle7-
I've never BIN'ed a scam auction but I used to use to bid retraction to derail scam auctions. For example, place a 1 million dollar bid and let it sit for several days then make a bid retraction (which is allowable under eBay rules) saying "FAKE SAC MULE REAL ONE DOES NOT HAVE D MINTMARK" or "FAKE 1804 DOLLAR REAL ONE IS 7X6 STARS NOT 10X6" and not worry about any trouble.
As far as K6AZ, he's a big boy and can take care of himself.

Sequitur

But I do know that K6AZ has already gotten himself into a lawsuit by doing some other things which are similar.

Blatant lie. Just blatant.

majorbigtime

<< <i>I think the Tiffany suit is going to be the end of the "venue" defense for eBay. It will be interesting to see how that unfolds. >>



What a nice, friendly, constructive and heartwarming thread. Actually, I agree with the devil man that Ebay's "we're just a venue" defense, to quote My cousin Vinney, "will not hold water". I beleive Ebay is a hot bead for fraudsters (been there, done that), and it's about time for some accountability to be imposed judicially IMO.

K6AZ

MBT, the whole point of this thread was that at every turn, eBay facilitates outright fraud. In this case, I notified them almost immediately after the auction when I found the auction the scammer lifted the description and pictures from. It took them two and a half days to nuke the auction. Most people pay within two days, so if I had been a gullible buyer I would have sent the payment to this fraud, the auction would be nuked, and I would be SOL. In my opinion, eBay is removing these completed fraud auctions from their database for no other reason than to cover themselves from a liability standpoint. Sooner or later, they are going to play this game one too many times, and they are going to land in a court with a judge and jury that doesn't buy the "we're just a venue" line. Then maybe they'll do something about the fraud that is just infesting their entire operation.

majorbigtime

<< <i>MBT, the whole point of this thread was that at every turn, eBay facilitates outright fraud. ............Sooner or later, they are going to play this game one too many times, and they are going to land in a court with a judge and jury that doesn't buy the "we're just a venue" line. Then maybe they'll do something about the fraud that is just infesting their entire operation. >>



I agree that Ebay is walking a thin line and likely will be nailed in litigation sooner or later. Unfortulately, most transactions are simply too small to warrant litigation and there is little opportunity of a class action as each case is fact specific. I applaud your efforts to curtail an apparent fraud, and hope to see Ebay held accountable soon.

relayer

The title of your thread is a given.

You might as well say "The sky is blue" - both statements are the undisputed truth.