Outrage of the day

EagleEye

I get a coin (I won't say what because it's presently on the market) for $7,000 that is graded MS-61 by PCGS. I think it's nicer, so I crack it out and submit it. It comes back "Damaged". It has a large hit on the back, but it was already in a holder, so I resubmit it again and they grade it PCGS AU-58. Feeling like I got a bit of a reprieve by just getting it back in a holder, I dump it in an auction for a loss. Now I see it fresh back from the Trade-N-Grade in a PCGS MS64BN holder for close to $20K.


On the other hand, I get some sometimes too! I had a VF 1888/7 Indian. I sent it in and it graded AU. Dumped it in an auction - it sold for VF money anyway.

Myqqy

That's quite a grading swing, going from "damaged" to au58 to ms64........ Looks like someone is making some serious money!!

goose3

Hey Rick

tell Bret to join these forums!!! and my CWT"s arrived today! VERY nice stuff.

relayer

And I thought I had bad luck

topstuf

Thank God for third grade partying
no
Thank God for third party partying.
no
Thank God for third grade grading.
no
Thank God for......

help me out here.....

BigE

Tell you what, I'm definitely taking my stuff to Trade-N-Grade next year! Sorry for the circumstances Eagle-Eye-------------------------------------BigE

jacktheknife

Is it possible some "adjustments" were made to the coin?

Neptune

what is T & G? That whole story sounds fishy to me. Not saying that you aren't telling truth, but that is too big of a range to make much sense.

Rob790

Try, try and try again!

That's an aweful story but I guess someone got lucky. Maybe lady luck will be nicer to you next time.

mrearlygold

Whoops!


Tom

coinguy89

Hey Rick, tell Bret to join these forums also, and that i'll be calling sometime next week about selling me a starter piece.

ER

You take your chance when you play the crack-out game.
You never know what 's going on with certain graders on certain days.

EagleEye

Exactly right ER.

I don't think anything was done to the coin, but I haven't seen it in person in the new holder. I bet I'll see it in an auction soon.

Russ

I had a similar scenario (although not nearly as much money involved).

Submitted an NGC MS64RB 1869 Two Center for cross with a minimum of MS63RB - DNC.
Cracked it out and submitted it raw - bodybag, altered surfaces.
Submitted it again - MS65BN pop 1/0.

Russ, NCNE

Boom

How in the world can there be such inconsistency when PCGS is supposed to be the best there is? Man, that's incredible. I look at all my coins and wonder, is this graded correctly and think of all the money spent. Where is the consistency here! That's ridiculous Not at all professional. Sorry to hear about this unfortunate fiasco.

Same goes for you Russ...what's going on here? That's just incredible.

fivecents

Well......... they say grading is subjective.

mgoodm3

and this is why having half grades is a bad idea.

Boom

Here's another one for you. I just got the customary email stating my grades are ready so I click on the link and this is what comes up

PCGS Order Status for Invoice # 3102755


Your shipment was entered on 09/27/2004. Further processing is pending.

This is my PCGS 65 1934-D Washington Quarter that went in as a perfectly fine Gem to be attributed Heavy Motto
(boy that's real difficult) All that had to be done was take it out the slab and relabel it. Gee, I wonder what the problem is now?
As far as I'm concerned they can forget the attribution and just return it the way it was before...UNDIPPED!

Grade is ready, then it's not. I think somebody is about to get a phone call.
****************************************************************************************************
Well at least Customer Service is polite. The nice lady says it's a computer glitch, that it's in the final stages and not ready yet!

Barry

Even whole grades is a bad idea.

nwcs

How about no grades?

darktone

Rick- I think we have all had this happen to us before to some extent. Grading is subjective that's why I can't understand some of the crazy prices paid for stuff that is one point different yet the lower grade coin is often superior. mike

Dog97

Makes you wonder. It's either damaged or it's not.
It's either circulated or it's not.
PCGS graders are sposed to be the cream of the crop being they were hot shot dealers in another life.
I think with that much $$ at stake I'd resubmitted it say, oh, 15 or 20 times before I gave up & dumped it.
I'm sure that with your knowlege you felt safe in cracking it out instead of submitting it under regrade service.
I know you're ticked.

Newmismatist

Let me understand the "consistency" of this:

MS61
BB - damage
AU58
MS64BN

What is this coin? - a chameleon?

Baley

sounds like quite a controversial coin. got any pics?

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Rick- I think we have all had this happen to us before to some extent. Grading is subjective that's why I can't understand some of the crazy prices paid for stuff that is one point different yet the lower grade coin is often superior. mike >>



I agree 100%. These kinds of stories are amusing, but they aren't unusual. Crack your whole collection out and see how many coins come back graded the same as they are today - I'd bet its less than half.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Rick

Have you ever heard of the body and fender repair shop?They can take dings and sometimes bangs out of coins.They sometimes fix holes,rims and occcasionally scratches.You cannot find them on the internet OR the Yellow Pages.

Stewart

RBinTex

A truly terrible result for you Rick. I'm sorry to hear it but not surprised. As someone else said, though, I'd have sent it in AT LEAST 5 times under walk-thru given the value involved.

roadrunner

10 seconds per coin and 2 to 3 graders is just not enough time imo to grade a coin accurately, esp. the one that was just described.
Toned coins and ones with minute flaws are especially difficult.

Not too much different from the PCGS MS62 1839 ND half that appeared in the 2001 or 2002 FUN auction ($7000 or so) and later upgraded to PCGS MS64. The reason the coin went 62 was because it was sort of lifeless, possibly AT, and was missing 1/4 of its luster. One can only surmise how it got to MS64 and sold for over $40,000.
Same coin, different day.

roadrunner

lloydmincy

Stories like this scare me. Should we even consider the grade on the holder?? Rick, that is such a ridiculous swing.

Rick, you are too nice of a dealer. Why DONT you tell us what coin it is???

UncleJoe

Another fine example as to why I don't (for the most part) bother with MS coins.

You would think the above swings were literally impossible, but of course we hear about this stuff happening all the time.

In addition, I have seen so many coins in MS 65 and up holders that I would never grade higher than 64 (and sometimes AU).

Very subjective indeed!!!

Joe.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Another fine example as to why I don't (for the most part) bother with MS coins.

You would think the above swings were literally impossible, but of course we hear about this stuff happening all the time.

In addition, I have seen so many coins in MS 65 and up holders that I would never grade higher than 64 (and sometimes AU).

Very subjective indeed!!!

Joe. >>



Joe - I think you'll find the situation at AU58 and below is exactly the same. Its part and parcel of applying numerical certaintly to a subjective topic, not a MS issue.

wondercoin

"I think it's nicer"

Rick: You were right. That appears to be the bottom line here.

And, your "mistake" so to speak was giving up on a coin you truly believed in, especially if it was in your field of expertise. I've been there, done that - I know it can drive you crazy. It's also why I currently own hundreds of coins in safelips I just won't sell. Better "safe than sorry".

Wondercoin

UncleJoe

UncleJoe

Joe - I think you'll find the situation at AU58 and below is exactly the same. Its part and parcel of applying numerical certaintly to a subjective topic, not a MS issue.

IMO and experience there is not as wide a swing in the circulated grades nor as costly a spread.

Joe.

ms70

<< <i>That's quite a grading swing, going from "damaged" to au58 to ms64........ Looks like someone is making some serious money!! >>



Yeah. PCGS.

Cherwood

I wonder why PCGS doesn't post to answer some of these threads about grading inconsistencies? This is, after all, their forum. You would think they would try to defend their practices.

EagleEye

NO, I won't divulge the coin. What gets me is the "Damage" body bag. The coin, from the images I see on the internet, has not been repaired to get in the MS64 holder. If it were only the low grade that made me upset, I certianly would have resubmitted it more.

JadeRareCoin

Damaged -> AU58 -> MS64

No comment......

BWRC

Knowing Rick very well,

I know this coin and its past. Its all factual and the large ding is still on the coins reverse but it gets jumped 6 points?

Still scratching my head on this one.

dlimb2

The grading system has become corrupt...why collect if this is the case...it just puts the money in a few hands while they screw the original owner......yeah did you forget they are on the stock market......that tells you that it is a cash cow right there...I think if you want to stop the corrupt actions of these grading companies...STOP GETTING THE COINS GRADED for a while and see how they respond...Collectors lets call it the Collecting Flu.

JadeRareCoin

I just had something similar happen at NGC. Sux.

UncleWiggly

<< <i>Damaged -> AU58 -> MS64

No comment...... >>




I wish you would comment. You might be able to make some sense to this for the rest of us. This type of scenario just doesn't seem possible unless someone did something. This puts people in the spot of being afraid to send coins in and afraid not to send them in.


Jerry

JadeRareCoin

I wish you would comment.

It's really what everyone already knows; grading is subjective and not consistent, regardless of the grading service or grader. The example posted here by EagleEye is an example of the far extremes of grading and is probably not a typical scenario. Whomever submitted the coin when it was graded AU-58 was the victim of overly conservative grading. The submitter of the MS-64 received what we call "a gift", and now the coin is in a coffin (will never be removed because of the optimistic grade). Therefore the grading "swing" as illustrated by EagleEye's coin is just an accumulation of errors; undergraded, then overgraded. The body-bag submission happens. I have seen coins bagged several times before grading. Again, grading (3rd party or otherwise) is not consistent.

If I had to pick the third party grading company that is most consistent, I would have to say PCGS. That's just based on my experience. Their grades also seem to be more realistic. Of course, you will always have exceptions. Such is the case with EagleEye's coin.

I just returned from the St. Louis show where I did a lot of buying. I remember thinking to myself how dangerous it would be for a novice collector to purchase coins based upon the grade of a top-tier 3rd party slab. For example, I saw a draped bust half graded VF-25 by one of the top 2 grading companies, and it was a hideous beast of a coin.....way overgraded and ugly to boot. The moral of the story is to buy the coin, not the holder (like that has never been said before). Unfortunately, someone will pay MS-64 money for a coin that is probably just an MS-61 coin that has a ding on the reverse.

ziggy29

<< <i>The submitter of the MS-64 received what we call "a gift", and now the coin is in a coffin (will never be removed because of the optimistic grade). >>

This is the numismatic version of the Peter Principle: Because of crackouts and regrades, all coins will eventually rise to the level of being overgraded in their holder.

At least they'll be overgraded until the fact that almost all coins are overgraded in their holder results in a change in market grading standards, at which time the "overgraded" 64 becomes the "average" 64 again, and a few overgraded 64s might be redefined as 65s. Rinse, lather, repeat...

MacCrimmon

<< <i>Rinse, lather, repeat... >>



Rinse, lather, repeat...MS61 - $16
Rinse, lather, repeat...BB - $16
Rinse, lather, repeat...AU58 - $16
Rinse, lather, repeat...MS64 - $16
Rinse, lather, repeat...

In the Commodities biz they call this churning. Of course, TPGs are completely above reproach.

sliderider

The key words here are 'Trade-N-Grade'. Dealer only event for coin submissions and a previously 61 coin that was once rejected for grading suddenly appears in a 64 holder??? Smells fishy to me.

Neptune

...it just puts the money in a few hands while they screw the original owner....

<NOD>

Boom

Since this has the same exact tone to it as the similar thread begun yesterday let's go ttt

marcmoish

I've got to agree with Jade's last post. By and large this would never have hapenned w/PCGS. Unfortunately the rare times it does - did and with well known copper guy like Rick. Outrage of the day indeed but definently a rare occurance no less.



Marc

Baley

I am so happy that I don't worry about this grading business of coins!

I just buy ones I like, crack them out of the tpg holders, and enjoy!!

ahh, serenity.

Newmismatist

<< <i>The moral of the story is to buy the coin, not the holder >>

Duhhhh

Reading this reminds me a bit of the thread where one of the services bagged a coin (actually graded it as AT) and another dealer felt certain it was NT and a 3rd dealer was equally certain it was AT

Or to be even more precise, my own personal experience with this type of scenerio was a Type 2 Proof $20 that went from Pr64 -> BB (edge damage - which was in fact no-existent) to PR65 then crossed to the TPGS that BB'd it as a PR65. The dollar value of that progression was $50K -> $10K -> $90K -> $120K No grading services will be mentioned to protect the guilty