CoinWorld: Mint says don't keep L&C coin in pouch/harmful materials/PCGS wood boxes...
magikbilly
Posts: 6,780 ✭
Hi All,
this is just the sort of thing I was saying with the PCGS wood boxes...and kept getting insulted for by a select few (and not anywhere near as much as in another room
). I paste relevant info for those interested, and YES, fabric and other materials can be just as problematic as wood - LEATHER is insane: relevant data is in the link if you want to see it:
<< <i>From Redlines conversation with Mr. David Scott, Head Curator of Metals at the Getty Conservation Institute "If you want to display your cars, do not, I repeat DO NOT, display them in wooden display cases, especially ones with unpainted/unvarnished surfaces. Doesn’t matter what kind of wood — just don’t do it. If you currently have cars in such a case, I highly recommend you remove them AT ONCE. The organic acids from the wood will really eat away at the cars, particularly if the case closes fairly airtight. >>
....thought you might be interested in some information about storing metal in wood I have been posting since around the time the PCGS wood boxes were issued. I love coins, have been involved in various areas of conservation for 18 years or so and know from related experience that wood can cause "toning" on metal - I think it will be shown to be a matter of how much - not if. Slabs are not hermetically sealed and will be exposed to the outgassing or various organic acids and other harmful fumes from the wood itself, the adhesives used in construction and even the fabric can be harmful - especially if in an uncontrolled or concentrated environment such as a deposit box. How well the newer slabs will hold out against the incursion of acidic fumes is unknown, but that they are not airtight is known. Wood is, in short, not the best choice. The display cases made by member SOLID are great IMHO because they are open displays - and they do suggest you do not store the wooden part in a safe or deposit box - just the aluminum tray (anodized aluminum is the material of choice for long term storage). At least 1 person concerned about this who contacted PCGS has already been offered a refund for his PCGS wooden boxes as "there will be no short term answer", and I heard from Mr. Hall that accelerated testing would take a month or two and we will be made aware of the results - unfortunately it seems they were not subjected to testing pior to marketing. There are also a few questions in the Q+A about this topic from myself and another. Several people have made excellent posts - Frattlaw showed with pics what I was writing about - slabs do not provide complete protection in the presence of acetic acid - which is found in wood - especially oak which the PCGS boxes seem to made out of. Oak emits up to 5% of its weight in acetic acid. MrSpud has written excellent posts about the chemical aspects of toning as well as raising awreness of the book Coin Chemistry by W. White. As I said in an earlier post - even if storage in wood is said to be 90% safe with 90% certainty, why risk a collection that has taken time, effort and money to assemble? Because they are pretty is not enough reason for me. And, no one has yet posted any BENEFITS at all of storage coins in wood to my knowledge.
Best,
Billy of anti-wood infamy
CARING FOR YOUR METAL OBJECTS
The American Institute for Conservation of Historic & Artistic Works
Prepared by Julie A. Reilly with assistance from David Harvey and Julie Lauffenburger, 2001.
"The characteristic tarnish on silver is black silver sulfide. Acidic gasses from wooden cabinets and cases can also cause metal corrosion. Vapors produced by plywood and other products that off-gas formaldehyde cause lead alloys and other metals to corrode, forming wispy white crystals often confused with mold growth. Keeping metal objects in a clean, dry, safe environment can prevent deterioration from environmental sources."
"Metals, in general, should be stored with inert storage materials. For example, metal cabinets and shelving should be used rather than wood cabinets and shelving. As discussed earlier, many woods and wood products, like plywood, emit acids and other gasses that cause metals to corrode. Acidic newsprint and cardboard boxes should be avoided. Acid-free, lignin-free wrapping paper and boxes are better. Clean, soft cotton cloth can also be used."
and:
Link to Data - if this doesnt convice you there is potential for harm from wood boxes nothing will
"Original" Wood Post (sent to Mr. Hall Aug 5th, responded Sept. 14th....just 3 days after my ORIGINAL Poll (below) closed where 78.79% voted "wood has the potential to harm coins")
Original PCGS Wood Poll Thread (more data)
Link To Another Wood Thread
this is just the sort of thing I was saying with the PCGS wood boxes...and kept getting insulted for by a select few (and not anywhere near as much as in another room
). I paste relevant info for those interested, and YES, fabric and other materials can be just as problematic as wood - LEATHER is insane: relevant data is in the link if you want to see it:<< <i>From Redlines conversation with Mr. David Scott, Head Curator of Metals at the Getty Conservation Institute "If you want to display your cars, do not, I repeat DO NOT, display them in wooden display cases, especially ones with unpainted/unvarnished surfaces. Doesn’t matter what kind of wood — just don’t do it. If you currently have cars in such a case, I highly recommend you remove them AT ONCE. The organic acids from the wood will really eat away at the cars, particularly if the case closes fairly airtight. >>
....thought you might be interested in some information about storing metal in wood I have been posting since around the time the PCGS wood boxes were issued. I love coins, have been involved in various areas of conservation for 18 years or so and know from related experience that wood can cause "toning" on metal - I think it will be shown to be a matter of how much - not if. Slabs are not hermetically sealed and will be exposed to the outgassing or various organic acids and other harmful fumes from the wood itself, the adhesives used in construction and even the fabric can be harmful - especially if in an uncontrolled or concentrated environment such as a deposit box. How well the newer slabs will hold out against the incursion of acidic fumes is unknown, but that they are not airtight is known. Wood is, in short, not the best choice. The display cases made by member SOLID are great IMHO because they are open displays - and they do suggest you do not store the wooden part in a safe or deposit box - just the aluminum tray (anodized aluminum is the material of choice for long term storage). At least 1 person concerned about this who contacted PCGS has already been offered a refund for his PCGS wooden boxes as "there will be no short term answer", and I heard from Mr. Hall that accelerated testing would take a month or two and we will be made aware of the results - unfortunately it seems they were not subjected to testing pior to marketing. There are also a few questions in the Q+A about this topic from myself and another. Several people have made excellent posts - Frattlaw showed with pics what I was writing about - slabs do not provide complete protection in the presence of acetic acid - which is found in wood - especially oak which the PCGS boxes seem to made out of. Oak emits up to 5% of its weight in acetic acid. MrSpud has written excellent posts about the chemical aspects of toning as well as raising awreness of the book Coin Chemistry by W. White. As I said in an earlier post - even if storage in wood is said to be 90% safe with 90% certainty, why risk a collection that has taken time, effort and money to assemble? Because they are pretty is not enough reason for me. And, no one has yet posted any BENEFITS at all of storage coins in wood to my knowledge.
Best,
Billy
of anti-wood infamyCARING FOR YOUR METAL OBJECTS
The American Institute for Conservation of Historic & Artistic Works
Prepared by Julie A. Reilly with assistance from David Harvey and Julie Lauffenburger, 2001.
"The characteristic tarnish on silver is black silver sulfide. Acidic gasses from wooden cabinets and cases can also cause metal corrosion. Vapors produced by plywood and other products that off-gas formaldehyde cause lead alloys and other metals to corrode, forming wispy white crystals often confused with mold growth. Keeping metal objects in a clean, dry, safe environment can prevent deterioration from environmental sources."
"Metals, in general, should be stored with inert storage materials. For example, metal cabinets and shelving should be used rather than wood cabinets and shelving. As discussed earlier, many woods and wood products, like plywood, emit acids and other gasses that cause metals to corrode. Acidic newsprint and cardboard boxes should be avoided. Acid-free, lignin-free wrapping paper and boxes are better. Clean, soft cotton cloth can also be used."
and:
Link to Data - if this doesnt convice you there is potential for harm from wood boxes nothing will
"Original" Wood Post (sent to Mr. Hall Aug 5th, responded Sept. 14th....just 3 days after my ORIGINAL Poll (below) closed where 78.79% voted "wood has the potential to harm coins")
Original PCGS Wood Poll Thread (more data)
Link To Another Wood Thread
0
Comments
what do you mean - please elaborate on your comment.
Best,
Billy
<< <i>Reading your comments regarding PCGS boxes. >>
Hi there,
my "comments" are voicing the known potential of wood boxes to tone metal objects stored in them over long periods of time. My opinion regarding toning slabs in wood boxes, concerning a potential - is formed by my own experience with conservation materials, and of course the compelling data from The Library of Congress, The Getty Conservation Center, the Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver, Coin Chemistry by W. White, The Merck Index of Substances, the Intercept Patent CoinWorld, etc etc...some of which explains how museums deal with this problem as it is a fact - some of the remaining variables for our purposes include the slabs performance in a concentrated environment and the way the box itself is stored etc. For example - if stored in a "better" deposit box with increased RH (for paper) - even storage in a warm environment will increase RH (despite claims to the contary). As you know coins stored in an environment with high RH are at increased risk.
Please do share any data you have that will refute or discredit the opinions of these respected organizations - or illustrate benefits of wood storage for metal. It would be more constructive. No one else has been able to, and I would love to read it for my own education. I am sorry this post makes you ill or whatever - it is actually intended to be helpful and prevent some uneducated people from possibly opening a wooden box years down the road after leaving the bank deposit box to find perhaps a hazed run of once brilliant Proof Libery 5c or the like - similar to what happened with some collections stored unknowingly in PVC years back. Just trying to help the hobby. Sorry you don't agree or like it
Best to you,
Billy
PS - why do you suppose the United States Mint is advising against storage with the L&C Pouch? I doubt such an admission makes them look good after they have sold the pouches. You do realize tanned leather is even more insane than wood for long term storage..right?
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>What's the hassel true toned coins are worth more in most cases that bright whites! >>
This issue really being discussed here, at least by me, is the wooden PCGS boxes which may pose a potential danger - the L&C Pouch announcement illustrates clearly that improper storage materials can cause damage over time - something not everyone in the forum agrees on despite the factual data presented, and the request for any evidence to the contrary.
I would not want a slabbed haze free 1909 Proof Indian to appear any different when it emerges from long term storage than when I last saw it. This is my concern - something like the PVC situation where you had collectors suddenly discovering whole collections that had been chemically damaged by the flips they were stored in for safety.
You mentioned "true" toning - yes, an example is mint set toning from the 1950's - toning will add a premium obviously, but I do not think that packaging was intended by design to tone the coins, anymore than the L&C pouch was. Deliberately storing a coin in an environment that will cause toning might look a lot like an AT practice. There is a difference, and I think the Mint suggestion not to store the L&C in the pouch speaks to that issue, however indirectly. To answer your question with a question - suppose the coin toned in an "ugly" or non-market acceptable way in the pouch - what then?
Best,
Billy