85 donruss

ldferg · October 5, 2004 2:26AM

any interest in this set? i was thinking of sending in a few star cards from a factory set. this set is pretty tough with the black borders.

mcastaldi · October 5, 2004 3:49AM

I'd considered doing a graded set of 85 Leaf - Canadian issue of 85D but limited to like 265 cards. I think the Leaf would be tougher - tougher to find, no factory sets & cards only available in wax packs. Instead I'm just doing a really(!) nice raw set.

Mike

jimtb · October 5, 2004 5:19AM

I just picked up an 85 Donruss for my Trammell set in a 9. It's got to be tough to fins 10's with the black borders - not to mention the thin stock.

ChicagoGlen · October 5, 2004 5:23AM

Yah, I just received a PSA 10 Fisk 1/1. Those black borders are killers.

mikeschmidt · October 5, 2004 5:44AM

<< Yah, I just received a PSA 10 Fisk 1/1. Those black borders are killers. >>

There are enough factory sets out there to make it pretty easy to find 10s. I think a factory set case costs a few hundred dollars - and I know that this is where the bulk majority of Schmidt PSA 10s originated. So, it is a truly tough set, because of the black borders - but I think that there is an ample enough supply of unopened product to make this an easy set in MINT condition for anyone willing to pay the fees, etc.

1985 Leaf is a pretty darn tough issue, though.

ldferg · October 5, 2004 7:28AM

jimtb, do you have a scan of the trammell? if so could you post it or email it to LDFerguson@bwsc.net? would like to see it.

bengineno9 · October 5, 2004 7:54AM

I thought i had a 1/1 but that didn't take long. Several months later a few more popped up. Thanks to the new look registry it appears to be a 1/5.
I haven't looked at a whole lot of Leafs but i did purchase a team set awhile back. I would say those would
be a little tougher to grade high.
Ben

mcastaldi · October 5, 2004 8:12AM

I agree with schmitty. . .if you're serious about doing a high-end 85D set, factory sets are the way to go. I seem to remember 85D being issued in rack packs, but I think these are pretty rare.

Mike

jimtb · October 5, 2004 9:44AM

idferg - I sent you an email with the scan.
Jim

Fabfrank · October 6, 2004 3:27AM

mcastaldi- 85 Donruss was issued in racks. Not has easy to find as wax, but available. Racks are better than factory sets actually in finding Gem mint cards. The racks have better gloss and factory sets were tightly wrapped, which gave a downard bent to some corners. I haven't priced them recently, but I think a facory set would run you less than a rack box.

ptper · October 6, 2004 4:26AM

As I understand it, the factory set cards are smaller than cards issued in any type of packaging. Does PSA differentiate between the two when grading?

mudflap02 · October 6, 2004 4:58AM

They do not differentiate. Also, the backs of factory set cards are flipped from those issued otherwise.

blacklab · October 6, 2004 5:21AM

It's tough, but maybe not as tough as the 1985 Fleer. I can't find a Fleer Clemens PSA 9.

mcastaldi · October 6, 2004 5:42AM

Blacklab> The pop report shows 638 PSA9s from 85F and 24 PSA10s. So I woulld hardly consider it a tough card to find. While there are more 85D Clemens PSA9s I feel this is solely due to the fact that there have been over 2000 more Donruss examples graded than Fleers. There have been a total of 3176 85F Clemens graded and there have been 5201 for Donruss. I'm pretty confident when the total number of Fleer submissions reaches 5210, you'll see the PSA9 numbers about where they are for Donruss right now. Plus, there's still a ton of unopened 85F out there. Further, I would say that there are more Donruss examples graded because most people feel it is his most attractive rookie card. As opposed to Fleer - which is a head shot. . .and Topps which is a still from the torso up.

By contrast, for 85 Leaf there are only 59 PSA9s and 2 PSA10s. As I said, the Leaf stuff has ALL the problems of the 85 Donruss (black borders, thin stock, etc) - plus it was only issued in wax packs - so it was even more prone to shipping. I've also found that the centering on the Leaf product was inherently worse than their Donruss counterparts.

Mike

Fabfrank · October 6, 2004 10:00AM

I've also found that the centering on the Leaf product was inherently worse than their Donruss counterparts.

You're right about the Leaf product Mike. Very Difficult to find gradeable product

andrewlaw · October 6, 2004 10:41PM

I am currently working on this set... I have 32% of the set complete with a rating of 9.02... Currently #1 on the registry...

PSA Set Registry - 1985 Donruss

If anyone is interested in starting this set, I am willing to sell my current set to get you started...

I have gotten myself involved in a different set that have put this set sort of on the back burner...

As far as building the set, I purchased about 20% of the set in one lot....then have spent the last year and half picking up cards on EBAY to get the other 12%...I purchased a box and some rack packs to submit some of my own, but found very few worth submitting...

Andrew(Mad97)

ldferg · October 25, 2004 1:46AM

well, i received the grades. was definitely hoping for 10s. i'll have to look at the henderson and jackson to see what happened on those. fyi, all of these are from a factory set that were still celophane wrapped.

Fabfrank · October 25, 2004 2:57AM

Not a bad submission. You got solid 9's, couple of 10's and the obligatory "WTF" 6. Believe me, it could have been much worse.

CreeperKat · October 25, 2004 3:16AM

Reading all these post of the 85 Leaf makes me proud of this card. I got it from a rack pack from a local card store.

maxXposure · October 25, 2004 3:58AM

CreeperKat - selling that Henderson?

CreeperKat · October 25, 2004 4:02AM

No, I'm going to hold on to it for awhile.

jimtb · October 25, 2004 4:46AM

Great job on the submission! I know you were hoping for more 10's - but black borders and think stock really hurt the chances.

That Henderson is a beauty!

ldferg · October 25, 2004 5:18AM

that henderson is tight...i'm sure pandrews would be interested as well as "godswork - on ebay"...

helionaut · October 25, 2004 6:00AM

85D is a great looking design and excellent checklist. A ~9.5 set could be awesome and it's something I consider once in a while, but I can never convince myself the cost is worth it. I figure it would cost $4500 if submitted myself. Can't talk myself into it when there are so many other things I can spend $4500 on.

ldferg · October 25, 2004 6:37AM

i'm not going to go for the 85d set. i'll probably have these on ebay this weekend. i'm looking at maybe an 81t set since the price seems to be fairly low.

JonB · October 25, 2004 7:20AM

I don't know much about the set except that my Nolan Ryan is a PSA 9...

If anyone has the Nolan Ryan 85D #60 in PSA 10 I'll pay an arm and a leg for it

BugOnTheRug · October 25, 2004 9:02AM

Heli,
I think your $4500 figure may be a tad too small. Assuming $6 grading fees on bulk subs, postage, insurance, obtaining the raw, the dreaded 8's, etc. - it doesn't leave you much wiggle room for a 9-10 set. I'm not sure of the market conditions on 85D's but on 84's you have had in the past 2 years big guns like Rushoeless, Jtcards, Xpsagrader, 4_sharp, and Eaglescards bust multiple sets and cases of these, and in the end, after initial 'shock' prices paid, things have leveled so much that psa 9's can be had for around $2-3 in quantity. This is the way to go with all the 'easier' cards in this set..........the real work comes when you get around 80% complete and up.

My guess that the 85 is popular enough for registry interest - and the big subbers - in a few years. It may just take some of these guns to fuel the market with a sporatic abundance of cards from time to time.

I'd consider doing it but not until the majority of the set can be had at well below SMR or submission cost.

BOTR

jaybyrd · October 25, 2004 9:58AM

The 84 Fleer Update Clemens RC is much more valuable than the 85 Leaf, but there a lot more graded copies of the 84 Fleer Update. Is this because the 84 Fleer is more valuable and therefore more have been sent in for grading, or is the 85 Leaf Clemens somewhat of a sleeper?

I hardly ever buy anything after 1975, but Clemens will probably be remembered as one of the top ten pitchers of all-time.

mikeschmidt · October 25, 2004 10:10AM

<< The 84 Fleer Update Clemens RC is much more valuable than the 85 Leaf, but there a lot more graded copies of the 84 Fleer Update. Is this because the 84 Fleer is more valuable and therefore more have been sent in for grading, or is the 85 Leaf Clemens somewhat of a sleeper?

I hardly ever buy anything after 1975, but Clemens will probably be remembered as one of the top ten pitchers of all-time. >>

Bottom line: No one will ever place a premium on a Canadian issue. Heck - 1968 OPC or Venezuelan Nolan Ryans are numerous, numerous times harder than the Topps - but the money always flows to the Topps versions. (high-grade tough issues will command premiums by set collectors - but rookie card collectors always gravitate toward the popular card).

For Clemens - the 1984 Fleer Update will always be his key rookie card. The next up would be his 1985 Tiffany. 1985 Leaf certainly is very hard - but it just won't ever be a high demand rookie card, except in the ultra high grades

ldferg · October 30, 2004 7:34AM

this henderson graded a 6... i sent a submission of 20+ from a factory set yielding 1 - 8, 2 - 10's and the rest 9's except for this one...

for the life of me i can't find anything wrong with this card (at least that would merit a 6)..would you resubmit or how do you handle sending back to PSA and stating your case as to why this received the grade it did?

downgoesfrazier · October 30, 2004 10:42AM

1985 Donruss (as well as 86) is prone to micro-wrinkles that seem to be prevelant on the factory stuff. Typically a 5 or 6 on an seemingly near-perfect example is from such a surface problem...however, it could very well be from the packaging. Look for a "lift" when you rotate the card under bright light in your hands around the corners. Also, the corners tend to get cracks in them about 1/4 cm from the tip that can be seen when the light is bright and the card is tilted. The stock is really smooth and the gloss is pretty tight on those--they're prone to cracking.

Lifting and/or cracking near a corner or a wrinkle must be the problems.

dgf

mcastaldi · October 30, 2004 11:17AM

Helionaut> " I figure it would cost $4500 if submitted myself. Can't talk myself into it when there are so many other things I can spend $4500 on."

If that's the case, why not spend $1000 on unopened product and card savers and build the set raw? Keep the standards as high as if you were submitting with a goal of PSA9 or PSA10, but just keep it raw. Is PSA really adding any value for sets like 85D? I'm talking set here, not certain individual cards.

The way I see it, the best case scenario is that you pay $6/card for PSA to tell you what you already know. And this only makes sense if PSA gets it right 100% of the time. Or. . .you can bottom-feed PSA9s on eBay for $4-$6 each and end up with a certain percentage that don't meet your quality standards regardless of what number is on the holder.

Let's assume you submit all 660 cards @ $6 each and get every single card in PSA9 NQ. You've paid $3960 in grading fees. Is an all-PSA9 set really worth $4000 more than a super-high-quality raw set?

Mike

Buccaneer · October 30, 2004 12:53PM

<< Let's assume you submit all 660 cards @ $6 each and get every single card in PSA9 NQ. You've paid $3960 in grading fees. Is an all-PSA9 set really worth $4000 more than a super-high-quality raw set?

Mike >>

Leave it to Mike to be the voice of reason and common sense. Anyone putting $4000 into a 80s Donruss set (or any 80s set for that matter) is totally nuts (unless you have money to burn, of course). Think about it, you are paying $6+S/H/I each for the privilege of encapsulating a 5-cent card. I can't think of any sensible reason why any of these sets cannot be 90+% raw, knowing the amount of factory cases you can still buy.

andrewlaw · October 30, 2004 11:59PM

ldferg - for the life of me i can't find anything wrong with this card (at least that would merit a 6)

downgoesfrazier - 1985 Donruss (as well as 86) is prone to micro-wrinkles that seem to be prevelant

A really nice raw set still could have 1-5 cards in it that really is a PSA 6, and you wouldn't even know it...How couldn't you live with yourself knowing that your prized 1985 Donruss raw set is in fact a fraud??? therefore $4,500 seems like a reasonable price for an all PSA 9 set, for the piece of mind alone...

oh yeah, I think anyone that doesn't collect what I'm collecting has to be completely nuts and obviously throwing away their money...

Buccaneer · October 31, 2004 2:43AM

<< ldferg - for the life of me i can't find anything wrong with this card (at least that would merit a 6)

downgoesfrazier - 1985 Donruss (as well as 86) is prone to micro-wrinkles that seem to be prevelant

A really nice raw set still could have 1-5 cards in it that really is a PSA 6, and you wouldn't even know it...How couldn't you live with yourself knowing that your prized 1985 Donruss raw set is in fact a fraud??? therefore $4,500 seems like a reasonable price for an all PSA 9 set, for the piece of mind alone...

oh yeah, I think anyone that doesn't collect what I'm collecting has to be completely nuts and obviously throwing away their money... >>

1. Does such a card really merit a mid-grade when more obvious flaws are not discounted?

2. Even if a set is all PSA 9, you cannot be assured that they are all "9". If you think that all 9s are created and graded equally, then you are fooling yourself. So even after spending all that money, is "piece of mind" really there or are you just collecting plastic slabs with 9s on them?

3. I do have 85D sets, singles and unopened. They do look very nice as they are (much better than 85T). Isn't that the goal instead of buying plastic holders? As Mike said, why would I pay an extraordinary premium (around 14,000%) to have a company give me their opinion on a how a card looks?

mcastaldi · October 31, 2004 7:05AM

andrewlaw> "A really nice raw set still could have 1-5 cards in it that really is a PSA 6, and you wouldn't even know it. . ."

Well. . .I regularly see cards in PSA9 holders which exhibit corner touches, print blemishes, or centering outside of 60/40. . .so where's the improved "peace of mind" over a super-high-quality raw set? At least for a raw set, you didn't pay a premium for any overgraded cards in your set.

Buccaneer> Let me clarify. . .I think the idea of PSA is great - to accurately assess cards' condition and authenticity on a basis that's consistent one card to the next and one set to the next. You can debate whether PSA actually achieves any part of the above statement, but that's what I feel PSA's ultimate aim is. But contrary to the belief of many, even if you think PSA achieves their aims (accuracy, consistency, and authentication) 100% of the time, that still will not add value to every set. When PSA9s (or 8s) go on eBay for less than the grading fees, PSA's grading is not adding value to those sets. I mean for sets like 85D, you almost have to get 10s to ensure recouping the grading fees. Anything less is a gamble. For the sets I'm doing, even in the best-case scenario PSA doesn't add much value for me. And combine that with consistency that I can best describe as a moving target, I feel I'll be able to assemble nicer cards and have a lot more fun if I just concentrate on raw cards. Obviously this approach is not right for everyone.

I certainly think people should collect what they like - and in the form that they like.

Mike

downgoesfrazier · October 31, 2004 7:41AM

Andrewlaw,
Mike is a good guy and being really diplomatic here. Me...not so much. I will just spell this out in response to your statements. Without a doubt, no doubt, I can more accurately assess the condition of a baseball card with expertise far greater than that of PSA's finest graders. I do not need PSA to overgrade or undergrade my cards as they will still just be my cards regardless. For the purpose of selling my cards I use PSA's moving target of standards and take my chances. I do this as the marketplace recognizes PSA as the authority.
I WILL say that I have learned from my experience of trying to meet published standards of third-party authenticators and this has added greatly to my boast of having "expertise". At this point there is no doubt that I can more accurately apply my standards than PSA does theirs. There are many on this board that will agree with me who know me and are familiar with my knowledge of post-war baseball.
I don't need PSA's assurance of me not having an EX/MT copy of an '85 Donruss Joel Skinner.

dgf

Buccaneer · October 31, 2004 8:38AM

Mike/dgf - I am actually of two minds on this. I fully believe in (and buy) graded stars, specifically those from PSA. I would accept PSA's inconsistencies and maddening degradation of microscopic flaws (while ignoring more obvious ones) on vintage stars (and on more valuable moderns) for my "peace of mind". For the amount that we would pay for raw vintage stars (if you can find them), I want to know that the card is unaltered and protected. A $300 PSA 7 1957 Yankees Power Hitters is much better than paying $250 for a raw NM version.

However, I have bought many raw NM 57, 61, 63, 64 and 65 commons from Mickey's - for prices ranging from $1.95 - $4.95. What good would it do me to pay even more for those cards to get them graded - only to tell me that Mick is right? A $2.50 1961 NM common in a $6 plastic slab is still a $2.50 common. Now my point regarding 85D makes it even more of an extreme case. But as I am reminded again, it is not my place to judge others in how they collect. I just get frustrated that baseball (and sports) cards that I have grown up with and continued collecting as an adult have become slabbed commodities with numbers on them.

ldferg · November 2, 2004 7:39AM

i'm planning to sell the PSA10 ozzie and sandberg on ebay (usually list on sunday evenings after church). if you are interested before listing, pm or email me an offer. my ebay id is: LD_Ferg and email is LDFerguson@bwsc.net.

thank you

BugOnTheRug · November 2, 2004 10:14PM

Mike -

<< Well. . .I regularly see cards in PSA9 holders which exhibit corner touches, print blemishes, or centering outside of 60/40. . .so where's the improved "peace of mind" over a super-high-quality raw set? >>

Phil -

<< At this point there is no doubt that I can more accurately apply my standards than PSA does theirs. >>

I wholeheartly agree with you both, but here's the rub: we all spend more time grading and scrutinizing our cards than they do. So here's a few things to think about:

1) How would we function as 8am-5pm graders 5 days a week, week after week, month after month, with only several seconds to opinion each card? Would we be consistant from 8am Monday to 5pm Friday? Even if you paid graders 250K a year, physical limitations (going cross-eyed after looking at so many cards) I'll bet there would still be inconsistencies.
2) If graders spent the time we did on average to scrutinize our cards, would they get it 'right'?

I'm not bringing this up as a combative position, it's just that at times it's like comparing apples to oranges - Hobby enthusiests and assembly line production.

BOTR

downgoesfrazier · November 2, 2004 10:23PM

BOTR,

I understand this. It is me who wrote the experiment about grading your own cards, putting them away after writing and recording information and a grade, then one week later do it again and compare. It's not easy to be consistent, but that's why we PAY to do it.

What you are doing above is being an apologist for PSA. If their graders can't be expected to function optimally from Mon-Fri. then the service itself is impractical and meaningless. You actually made our point better than we did. If we can't expect and demand that they be consistent and impartial, why else would we send our cards to them?

dgf

BugOnTheRug · November 3, 2004 1:06AM

It's not my intent to come off as an apologist for PSA. When you mix the human factor, individual interpretation, and high thru-put process business, the outcome can get skewed. I'm not happy about this either and have complained on these boards and even to you about it.

<< If their graders can't be expected to function optimally from Mon-Fri. then the service itself is impractical and meaningless. >>

On older cards, I'm more inclined to use grading services if only for detecting conterfeit and altered cards. This is no substitute for your quote above, but it is a consideration that I allow. However with newer issues where fresh product is aplenty, I totally agree with this statement.

With this in mind, and with the number of folks like you (and including myself) doing extremely high-end modern raw sets, what we need is a web site, group, or 'club' that focuses on raw high-caliber sets, etc., where our modern raw can be 'displayed' similar to the registry.

Bill

downgoesfrazier · November 3, 2004 1:41AM

I'm in!

Buccaneer · November 3, 2004 2:33AM

<< It's not my intent to come off as an apologist for PSA. When you mix the human factor, individual interpretation, and high thru-put process business, the outcome can get skewed. I'm not happy about this either and have complained on these boards and even to you about it.

<< If their graders can't be expected to function optimally from Mon-Fri. then the service itself is impractical and meaningless. >>

On older cards, I'm more inclined to use grading services if only for detecting conterfeit and altered cards. This is no substitute for your quote above, but it is a consideration that I allow. However with newer issues where fresh product is aplenty, I totally agree with this statement.

With this in mind, and with the number of folks like you (and including myself) doing extremely high-end modern raw sets, what we need is a web site, group, or 'club' that focuses on raw high-caliber sets, etc., where our modern raw can be 'displayed' similar to the registry.

Bill >>

I'm in too (as long as it can be expanded to any sets and accepting graded cards mixed in with them). Say NO to premiums on plastic slabs!

mcastaldi · November 3, 2004 3:28AM

Buccaneer> "I'm in too (as long as it can be expanded to any sets and accepting graded cards mixed in with them). Say NO to premiums on plastic slabs!"

I would say that graded cards shouldn't be discriminated against. Does a mint card cease to be mint just because it's in a holder? Well. . .now that I think about it, PSA tends to nick the corners on 5-10% of my cards during the slabbing process so that may not be the best way to put that

-----------
BOTR> "On older cards, I'm more inclined to use grading services if only for detecting conterfeit and altered cards. This is no substitute for your quote above, but it is a consideration that I allow. However with newer issues where fresh product is aplenty, I totally agree with this statement."

This is what I mean when I asked if PSA was adding value for those cards/sets. For the older issues, PSA can add value - but then you have to decide if that value is worth tolerating PSA's maddening inconsistency. But in my mind, even if PSA was 100% consistent 100% of the time, there's no way an 85D set in all PSA9 is $4000 better than a super-high-end raw set. I'd be willing to grant that an all-PSA9 set might be better, but would it be $4000 better??? And regardless of the issue, if PSA can't be consistent they're not doing all they can to help me narrow my search for cards that meet my standards.
Ultimately it's up to the individual collector to decide for themselves what to collect, but a graded set like this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Mike

BugOnTheRug · November 3, 2004 5:23AM

Mike,
Your points are well taken.

Bill

ldferg · November 3, 2004 10:54AM

just opened 2 wax boxes of 85d leaf. i doubt if there are any GEM's at all (common or stars). i'm assuming psa will treat this set no differently than the 85d regular issue when grading.

ldferg · November 14, 2004 6:23AM

several 85 donruss and 84 donruss ending today and tomorrow.

thanks for looking: Donruss

AkbarClone · November 14, 2004 7:06AM

ldferg or any of you others with 85 Donruss on hand:

Do you happen to have a spare #37-Scott Bradley?

Please let me know if so.

Thanks,
James

frankhardy · November 15, 2004 12:51AM

Take a look on the "Sportscards and Memorabilia" Forum and look at "My First PSA 10!!!" I just got my email Thursday on my submission and got my first PSA 10. It was a 1985 Donruss Puckett RC. I was very pleased. It came from a factory set. The Clemens got a 7! Go figure! I should have my cards in the mail today.

85 donruss

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