An idea to slow theft down

MS68

I have a great deal of respect for the opinions of the board members here and would greatly appreciate any input on this idea, especially from our resident lawyers. The hot coin market of the last few years has unfortunately been accompanied with an increase in theft as well. I have been in contact with a number of other individuals that have had coins stolen over the last few years. The coins that turn up later have coincidentally all come with the same story. As the coin gets tracked further and further back toward the thief the trail has always ended with the person at the end of the line saying that they purchased the coin from an individual for cash and did not get that person's contact information. My proposal is the following. If acceptable to you all here, I would like to start a petition to send off to the board of the ANA for consideration.

Any member of the ANA that purchases a coin over (any ideas here would be appreciated) for cash that does not take the contact information of the seller and the coin later is found to have been stolen will be expelled from the ANA and put on a list of individuals known to have trafficked in stolen merchandise.

JadeRareCoin

Excellent idea. When buying rare coins or currency, it should be a matter of standard procedure to obtain contact information from the seller. We prefer to pay with a company check for every purchase.

To further your idea, the ANA should have a printable form on their site that states something like, "Purchase Order Document", "Note: per ANA rules and regulations, all members are required to obtain information on any coin purchases over $1000", or something like that.

Your idea would surely be a hinderance to some would-be thiefs, but there will always be a few sneaky (slimy) crooks who always find a way to screw someone.

I would back your idea without hesitation.

Dennis

FrattLaw

But what does this really accomplish? Better yet -- what are you trying to accomplish?

Expulsion from the ANA might not be that big of a deal to most dealers. Jail time yes, non-ANA member status, I don't know.

I'm not trying to knock your efforts, I'm just not sure where you are going with them?

Michael

BigE

What would "contact information" consist of?-------------BigE

wayneherndon

Theoretically a good idea. However, legitimate sellers (and illegitimate buyers) could simply use false buyer contact info.

WH

earlwbollinger

Maybe we ought to start having serial numbers engraved on the coins (when they get slabbed) like they do the diamonds.
Then you can use a magnifier to check out the serial number to help trace the coin back to it's original owner (or person who slabbed it).
The micro engraving like they do to diamonds, would not detract from the coins as it is just about invisible anyway.

mgoodm3

"put on a list of individuals known to have trafficked in stolen merchandise"

I would think that would be legally shaky ground to be on since you have no proof that they knew what was going on.

MS68

Michael- I thought the title of the thread made it quite clear what I am trying to accomplish. The more hurdles that are put in front of a thief the better. I believe that being expelled from the ANA and put on a list of known possible thieves would be more of a deterant than you may believe. The ID required would be picture ID like a drivers license. Most pawn shops, jewelry stores, coin shops, etc. are required to take this information of people selling them merchandise. My goal is to make it so that all members of the ANA be required to take the same information when buying coins for cash. If accepted, the ANA could even have a form that you could print out from their website.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Trafficking in stolen coins ???????

Do people really do that ?

I can assure you that 100 % of all the coin dealers in business will and do accept cash in amounts less than $10,000.Coin dealers have a legal right to do so.The law is already in place by the Justice Department.I believe any dealer that accepts more than $10,000 cash must file form 6800 ? and then notify the buyer that he did file the form.

I for one don't give a hoot about the ANA.They threw me out years ago because they believed another dealers B.S.This year they asked me to rejoin and I would not because there is no incentive for me to do so.

The best idea that I can offer is one I saw in the Baltimore show.Security there found a guy stealing.They took the stolen merchandise.Then Security proceeded to walk the guy around the Bourse floor in handcuffs asking each and every dealer if this thief was at additional dealers tables and if anyone was missing anything else.

Stewart

earlwbollinger

Well, in California, the ID record system was killed as it would have destroyed the numismatic hobby as we know it.
This sort of sounds like your trying to re-create that bill that was killed in California.

sliderider

There are instances where that may not work anyway. If someone has a coin with distinctive toning patterns, for example, and it gets stolen. The thief then cracks it out, dips it, submits it, and then sells it to you in a new slab. Is there really any way for you to know that coin is stolen since you may be on the lookout for, say, a 1927 SLQ with rainbow toning in a PCGS slab with serial number whatever, but are presented with a blast white piece in a different slab? Should you lose your credentials and possibly face criminal charges for being duped? I'm sure there are probably a lot of coins out there that were stolen at one time and never recovered that have passed unknowingly through the hands of several dealers. Should they now all be barred from trading in coins?

Theop

Do you have any real evidence that coin theft has increased?




<< <i>Well, in California, the ID record system was killed as it would have destroyed the numismatic hobby as we know it. This sort of sounds like your trying to re-create that bill that was killed in California. >>



I thought the fundamental flaw in the CA law was a waiting period for being able to resell coins, not the requirement for ID.

FrattLaw

The way I see it there are 2 problems with the proposed amendment. First, it's not going to deter crime. And it's only going to make dealers and sellers more hesitant to do business. Just because a coin isn't stolen, doesn't necessarily mean that someone is going to be more than happy in supplying private information to conduct a sale.

And just because you take a name, doesn't mean the coin isn't stolen. It just means you might have 1 more name of 1 more person who doesn't know the coin is stolen. It won't give you the thief.

As for pawnshops ect taking info, again this doesn't mean that there isn't people in the pawn business who don't actively seek out criminals and act as fences. It is a lucrative market that isn't going to go away because the ANA says so.

Granted I like the idea of making it more difficult to steal and fence coins, but I'm not sure I think this is the way to do.

Michael

njcoincrank

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong. But I was under the impression that because of the Patriot Act any cash transaction over $3000 was supject to some sort of Goverment jurisdiction, and/or puts the purchaser at risk of violating the Patroit Act.

Once again, I am not saying this is correct, mearly something I was told by somebody I respect.

Any help would be appreciated.

David: I applause your idea. With a little work (legally) it might just work.

njcc

tradedollarnut

Why not just post the fellow's name here right now? Wouldn't that have the same effect and be much simpler?

Of course, that's a rather risky action to take .... as is creating a list of 'cash traffickers'. I agree with Michael on this one.

Perhaps a nice visit by a couple of 'Joisey Garbagemen' would work out best....

SethChandler

Just have the thief sit through an AT versus NT thread. He'll be finished with coins altogether!

lloydmincy

It is mind boggling to me to see dealers throw 5, 6 figure coins on the tables like they are quarter poker chips. I am also utterly amazed how LITTLE security is at the major coin shows. Come on. I think most banks have no where near what the coin show floors have on a given day. If security is not going to be hightened (sp), then I guess, just watch your stuff like a hawk.

JxnBoy

I see problems with tax implications here. People use cash for a reason. Although I'm not down on the tracking idea, I see where some people would be.

relayer

A better tip is don't just leave your coin sitting out in the open and wander away.

JRH

<< <i>Maybe we ought to start having serial numbers engraved on the coins (when they get slabbed) like they do the diamonds. >>



I like this idea (or something like it). Let's use technology to code or encrypt or engrave or whatever. There ought to be some nearly foolproof method that would not really "harm" the coins and provide an acceptable "marking" or "branding".

Some enterprising person could start a new company and probably make a fortune.

ms70

It's a good effort but I'm sure it would only be a matter of time before the IRS wants the paperwork.

Libertad

Restrictive acts tend to limit freedoms. I'm against them being added generally, even if for the common
good.

Consider a moratorium on selling all coins. The Coin Vault would dry up and blow away, shady dealers and
sellers would be a thing of the past, thievery for resale would stop in its tracks. What a good thing!

Too far?

How far is that, exactly?

Conder101

<< <i>Consider a moratorium on selling all coins. >>


Not so loud. The Government actually considered doing that that in the early 1960's.