What's the point of coin collecting in high grades?
syraq
Posts: 633
Wether it's a denomination, a country ,or an entire empire. I was recently thinking about this a lot. With the internet around, the availability of high grade coins seems to have multiplied , along with the prices of certain coins in high demand. But what's the point of building and owning, for instance a high grade British or Canadian set, or , as in my case, a Greek 1833 complete set MS63-66 ,white, when clearly, these are coins that are readily (or almost) available at any time for a certain price?
Pride of ownership?
With me it's the toning of the silver coins ,the unique character of each BU red/red brown copper coin, and I also include some gold coins for the sake of completion. Most of my high grade coins are toned, and as such, unique. If they were white, I would be very tempted to sell and generate cash for other trades, without owning a coin for very long , unless it's really rare.What do you think?
Pride of ownership?
With me it's the toning of the silver coins ,the unique character of each BU red/red brown copper coin, and I also include some gold coins for the sake of completion. Most of my high grade coins are toned, and as such, unique. If they were white, I would be very tempted to sell and generate cash for other trades, without owning a coin for very long , unless it's really rare.What do you think?
Dimitri
DPOTD-1
DPOTD-1
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<< <i>What's the point of collecting coins at all? >>
History. Coins are cheaper to buy than a castle and cheaper to maintain and look after.
Of course I don't mind the steel patina of coins that are over 200 years old
First DAMMIT BOY! 25/9/05 (Finally!)
" XpipedreamR is cool because you can get a bottle of 500 for like a dollar. " - Aspirin
<< <i>My equilibrium grade is XF, with no major distractions, including toining... I like silver to be blast white - it's more attractive to me that way and also this is the way it came out of the mint.
Of course I don't mind the steel patina of coins that are over 200 years old
I'm with you on the toning.
For coins newer than say 1920 i want blast white. Coins older i'll accept grey toned or blast white. Coins from the 19th century white, grey or a hint of blue (if you've ever seen the ex-Chard's 1847 gothic crown with it's steel blue tone now there is a coin to behold)
See here... [surely the most attractive gothic crown ever in existence)
Crown
(notice how it's very uniform)
With toning i like it even, if it ain't even i don't want it.
Coins older than the 19th century preferably not white, but grey or the steel blue tone.
For hammered coins exactly the same, but strangely i am very partial to hammered silver with very light rainbow toning something i would abhor on milled coins.
<< <i>
With toning i like it even, if it ain't even i don't want it.
Coins older than the 19th century preferably not white, but grey or the steel blue tone. >>
My opinion is exactly the same. Nothing bothers me more than a Morgan dollar with one side mish-mash colored and the other white
First DAMMIT BOY! 25/9/05 (Finally!)
" XpipedreamR is cool because you can get a bottle of 500 for like a dollar. " - Aspirin
This was one of my fave toners:
She was a great coin. Bought her for cheap, sold her for a bundle
A bit strong for me though.
I still like this (this is how i likes my Morgans);
That's a clear point of view. Besides, these coins have been around, a very important factor to many Darkside or Lightside collectors. But unc coins have not been around, they have, theoretically, been only in the Mint bags of the issuing country and in the coin collecting market ever since. So, my question is, why tie up so much more money, for something that is constantly available on the market, and not unique, such as a painting for example?
What's the point of collecting coins at all?
Sumnom, it wasn't my intention, but it kinda makes you think and question the whole thing, doesn't it?
DPOTD-1
What reasons make a certain coin a real keeper for life ? If any.
DPOTD-1
But then again maybe it's because when you get to pre-19th century coins (which is where my collection lies) UNC coins are just not that common. I've never seen a UNC 1674 Sixpence for example.
And UNC hammered coins, well i don't even know if such a thing exists i've come across AU's though, but EF's are still generally nicer, infact so are VFs!
I think some of the high grade mentality is imbedded in the American psyche of always having to have the largest or best.
DPOTD-3
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Don
If you're going to do something, do it right.
If the best you can find or afford is Fair then go for it, but if better is available most collectors are just natually going to be attracted to it.
Post-1900 coins I seem to prefer uncirculated (or proof when I can get them), but the only "toning" I like are uniform subdued colors like the blue-ish on that example of the Crown. Steel-grey is always a good choice for me, too. I just don't like reds, oranges, yellows, or any rainbow combinations because they detract from the overall appearance of the coin's original design, IMHO.
I like what I perceive to be "eye appeal", and that obviously varies from person to person.
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Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
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<< <i>or any rainbow combinations because they detract from the overall appearance of the coin's original design, IMHO.
>>
I agree with modern, but have you ever seen a hammered silver coin with rainbow toning? Thinking along the lines of this... (see the Edward I penny Class 4) and the second king John penny on here...
Link
(The king John one is very subtle, too subtle to scan but if you look on the reverse you can see some of the actual colour, reds, oranges, blues etc.)
As far as character goes,even high grade coins can have it. Nice tonining, even slightly diminished luster can make a coin more attractive. For business strike sometimes I do not think the bright and shiny look is the most attractive. On some designs it works and on others it does not. For example, IMHO a blast white Eddie VII is not an attractive coin. Nice toning or a nice slightly gray color with the luster knocked down just a bit is nice. But I want the coin to have as few as marks as possible and a nice strike. But on most proof or sp coins,I want them white or just the faintest touch of color. But on these coins, an extremely high technical grade is important. Outstanding strike and virtually mark free is a must.
If I collected Austrian and German state coins in, say, well circulated VF I would have thousands of coins to buy at any given moment. Trying to hunt out the gems allows me to eliminate 99% of the offerings immediately. This helps keep the collection to a more managable size and make sure each addition is of better than average quality. Fortunately except for easily recognized rarities
A second consideration is that when selling you'll get a higher percetage of your purchase price back with high grade coins.
-JamminJ
What makes a particular coin, a lifetime keeper?
DPOTD-1
I have quite a few coins that are in the "completely satisfied for the forseeable future" category. However, I could see my collecting interests wandering into something like Byzantine or ancient coins at which time they might not be as satisfying as they are now. So I'll take the liberty to alter your question a bit to "What makes a particular coin one that's completely satisfying for the forseeable future?"
A neccessary, but not sufficient, requirement to move a coin into the stratosphere of my collection is that it has to be cool. Cool can mean diffierent things to different folks but for me it has to be historically related to the Holy Roman Empire and must be in undamaged condition.
Thinking about my very best coins, one way to make it is that they are so unusual that I'm unlikely to ever see another in the next couple of years. An example of this would be my 1530 Germany/Augsburg quater thaler in VF, struck in the name of Charles V in the year and location of the Diet of Augsburg where the Augsburg confession was presented. I've never seen one before or since, although I have seen one of the thaler denomination offered at auction in Europe. My local dealer used to work in the world departmet of Bowers & Ruddy and he's never seen on, but heard of one selling sometime during the '80s in Europe.
Another way to make it to the top is to be the very best of a type I've ever seen. An example is my 1559 Hungarian denier. It's a very common type but they usually come terribly beaten up, looking like little lumps of coal. Where this one was for the past 450 years I have not a clue, but it has a sharp stike and booming luster (unusual on debased silver)- simply the best of the type I've ever seen. A second example would be my 1707 Joseph I thaler.
The final way to make it to the top would be the coin to have some type of "hook" which makes it unusual enough to scream "I'm a quality coin!" This is the broadest category and includes coins with wonderful toning, great luster when they usually come dead, or hust super eye appeal.
Good question, Dimitri, very thought provoking!
-JamminJ
It seems to me that a coin would be a keeper if it's something you're not likely to find again, regardless of how much money you have to spend. Lately, I have been looking for coins with unusual and interesting designs or toning (or both) that are also hard to find in any condition, such as proofs, without regard to whether they have circulated. My most recent purchase was a 1932 3d proof from Southern Rhodesia that met all those requirements -- rarity (the mintage was 642 and it's the only Southern Rhodesia proof I have ever seen), beautiful blue and gold toning and interesting design.
As for collecting in high grades, that depends on the metal. I doubt if future collectors are going to feel sentimental about low-grade aluminum coins, or the base-metal euros or British pounds, because they just look ratty when worn. But I have a 1916-d dime in AG that I really like, partially for the fact that it passed through lots of hands and purchased lots of goods before someone finally recognized its special attraction for collectors and sent it to PCGS.
Dunno i rarely keep coins long enough to find out!
At the moment i'd say the safest three coins in my collection are the AEF 1693 Sixpence, the VF 1694 Sixpence and the VF 1674 Sixpence. With the Stephen penny not far behind.
Although i'll admit i did think of selling the Stephen at one point when an ever rarer coin came along, but i decided i couldn't do it.
The other three are totally safe AT THE MINUTE, but things may change.
The thing is all four coins have eye appeal, and the 1693 has the grade that many people spend some time searching for. The 1674 is by no means the best 1674 sixpence out there not by a long long long shot (i've seen GEF's!), but on eye appeal it's got it. I thinkso and many people have tried to buy it off of me, but no i won't sell.
As for what makes a keeper - until recently, I've sold very few coins from my collection in my entire life. The only reason I am selling now is because the focus of my collection has radically changed from US to world coinage. And I am using the proceeds from my US collection to finance my world collection. And since my collection of US spanned over 40 yrs without changing - I doubt it will change again. So they are all keepers
And yes Sylvester - MS examples do exist for hammered coinage. I own a few
I am a temporary caretaker of those coins which someone 80 or 150 or 300 years ago saw fit to set aside. Why did they see fit to put aside a freshly minted coin? A child's birth year? A marriage memento? The death of a loved one?
I only have a single coin which can be traced to it's origin with a factual story. The others? Their stories? I'm afraid they're mostly lost in the ether of time. And yet, they defied the odds. These FDC British coins are not exactly sitting around in mint bags, they're one-offs. Some are common, others are near unobtainable in the same conditions the engravers intended. They are beautifully toned; purely original, vibrant. With very, very few exceptions they must be that way. Who among us can defy the odds of aging?
In short, they are tiny works of incredible artistic ability the likes of which we will never see again in common circulation. Maybe that's it in a way; to be reminded of pride of workmanship which once pervaded society, but is being slowly lost over time; at least in the US.
It's a long, long road, but, I carry on as best as a poor church mouse can.
Take a hammered groat of 1470 for instance. As the moneyor brings down the hammer upon the die to make the coin he's sat in the Tower of London, and he's using new dies because of the recent events. Meanwhile in the same building is sat the recently restored Henry VI who only a few months earlier had been incarcerated in the tower itself by Edward IV who is now in exile in Flanders.
Whilst this coin is still shining with newness the former Queen and wife of the temporarily deposed Edward IV is hiding in sanctuary at Westminster Abbey, she was a 'commoner' and one of the first Queens to have not been of royal blood, she is Elizabeth Wydville (or Woodville). Equally despised due to her low start in life. Whilst this coin sits there awaiting to be cast into circulation the former Queen gives birth to a young prince the future Edward V.
Here's this simple little piece of silver, a rather unpopular denomination was the groat, but it lasted an extraordinary length of time despite it's unpopularity. England was still in the medieval period, the Early Modern period of the Tudor Dynasty had not yet begun, the future Henry VII was still in France at this point. George Duke of Clarence (Edward IV's brother) was still around and had not yet met his fate in a barrel of Malmsey wine. His other brother Richard of Gloucester was not yet known as the hunchback tyrant of infamy that he went down in history for, Bosworth wasn't even thought of and the great mystery of 1483 hadn't happened yet.
Where castles have fallen, where men have fought and died and yet have only their names to be remembered by, or in the case of many have simply passed out of all knowledge of existence, this little silver coin remains. The War of the Roses was still ongoing and Margaret of Anjou (Henry VI's wife) was now ruling with an iron fist again whilst her husband sat and prayer or talked to the stonework, but it would not last.
Through all this a little round disc of silver survived unscathed as a reminder that all this really did happen and that as advanced as society becomes there are some that still like those little round silver discs slightly more than the next man.
Some say coin collecting is a love of history, i'd agree.
<< <i>Some say coin collecting is a love of history, i'd agree. >>
09/07/2006
<< <i>If I collected Austrian and German state coins in, say, well circulated VF I would have thousands of coins to buy at any given moment. Trying to hunt out the gems allows me to eliminate 99% of the offerings immediately. This helps keep the collection to a more managable size and make sure each addition is of better than average quality. Fortunately except for easily recognized rarities >>
I agree with JJ. With inexpensive, common coins -- the ones I'm most likely to pass on to their next caretaker -- it doesn't make much sense to me not to get a nice BU example. With older coins, it's not always necessary for it to be Unc., but there has to be some "eye appeal" that calls out my name, casts its spell on me, and "makes" me take it home. With my Imperial German and German East African collections, it's mostly the challenge. Since these are my premiere works, I like the idea of having one of the best collections around (and I have no worries about their appreciation in value).
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<< <i>Good question. I always end up selling nearly all of my collection. The only thing that really makes me keep a coin is the emotional value of it. I've kept all the coins I bought in Australia despite having several sales since then. They're sort of like memories, or souvenirs, whichever. >>
Darkhorse has a great eye for coins, and he's a pusher.
He [sniff]... he got me hooked on George V coins by selling me an East Africa shilling in choice BU. I've been messed up ever since.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>Collecting the finest available is equivalent to collecting.
If you're going to do something, do it right.
If the best you can find or afford is Fair then go for it, but if better is available most collectors are just natually going to be attracted to it. >>
I'm afraid I'm not a collector, then.
I'm putting together a US transition year type set in VF to AU, though I know I could get most of the coins in high MS grades. I look for coins with a certain "look" to them that are circulated with decent details.
Obscurum per obscurius
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