How exactally does toning affect grade? Or does it not?

coinguy89

Say i've got a toned coin with what appears to be some imperfections on it. The coin would only grade at a MS-65 level, but this coin has toning on it, would it now get like a MS-66 or MS-67?

rainbowroosie

If the color is MS 69, YES.

FrattLaw

From what I've seen, PCGS does give bumps for really nice color. I thought NGC would give a * for eye appeal, but I've also had them give bumps for color as well. I would say 1 point is the norm. Sometimes 2 points.

Michael

coinguy89

<< <i>From what I've seen, PCGS does give bumps for really nice color. I thought NGC would give a * for eye appeal, but I've also had them give bumps for color as well. I would say 1 point is the norm. Sometimes 2 points.

Michael >>



I don't think that's very fair.

anablep

Coinguy89: What do you think grading companies should do gradewise with toning?

FrattLaw

I don't think that's very fair.

Okay then -- what's the grade on this one -- from a purely technical standpoint?




Michael

Cratylus

Now you're touching on an area that is a big issue with me. With regards to toning, I think coin grading companies should just butt the hell out of the equation!

Toning falls into the category of personal opinion. What I consider beautiful toning might not be what others consider beautiful toning. Eye appeal should NOT be a grading component. Grading should simply be the ratio of Current Surface Condition to Minted Surface Condition. If and what I pay extra for a coin with what I consider "better eye appeal than normal for the grade" is between me and the dealer. Period. And this notion of "grading is subjective" stems largely because of the whole "eye appeal" nonsense. If they graded a coin based on the ratio I mentioned before, grading would be a LOT less subjective. Either a coin possesses the surface conditions of a certain grade or it doesn't. It's that's simple.

Same goes for damaged/cleaned coins. If a coin has been whizzed, polished, dipped, tooled, or whatever... the coin should not be bodybagged. Nor should it be slabbed and "Net Graded." Just slab the coin and tell me if there are any problems. A coin with XF details that has been cleaned is not "XF40 Details, Cleaned, Net VF30"; it's simply "XF40 Cleaned." The dealer and I can work out whatever price adjustments should be made in light of this fact.

kranky

<< <i>From what I've seen, PCGS does give bumps for really nice color. I thought NGC would give a * for eye appeal, but I've also had them give bumps for color as well. I would say 1 point is the norm. Sometimes 2 points.

Michael >>



And the kicker is that sellers still think they should get a big premium for the coin, after it's been bumped a point or two already! Take a nice 65, bump it to 67 for spectacular toning, and they want moon money because it's a "spectacularly toned 67"!

Double-dipping, if you ask me.

jom

I've never cared for the idea of the TPG's giving "bumps" for toning. It is the same reason I don't care for the strike designations. It is too much of an "artificial" (if I can use that word here.. ) addition to the price of a coin. IMO, the coin should be graded as if the toning didn't exist and then let the MARKET decide what the coin is worth.

jom

rainbowroosie

FrattLaw,
Technically a nice 65; but should be in a 67* holder for overall look. I like that coin.

Cratylus

A thumbs up for Kranky and Jom!

Baley

there is no "exact" way that toning affects the grade of a coin... each coin is different. There is only the SUBJECTIVE effect of toning on the perceived eye appeal of the piece, and toning can be very negative, slightly negative, neutral, slightly positive, very positive, or extremely positive factor (and this can be different for every grader)

the color of the coin will be taken into account, along with strike, wear, marks, and surface preservation, to arrive at a final grade opinion.

Great toning can add a grade or two to a coin. Bad toning can detract by the same amount.

Boom

While the coin is demonstraring attractive NT, you can just start counting the multiple hits and tics, especially on the Obverse. No way the coin will ever be a 67. In fact I am surprised it's a 65. JMHO More like a 64

airplanenut

Think of it this way--one of the points of grading is eye appeal... toning can give a coin better eye appeal. If it becomes that much more attractive, its grade can go up.

Jeremy

coinguy89

<< <i>Think of it this way--one of the points of grading is eye appeal... toning can give a coin better eye appeal. If it becomes that much more attractive, its grade can go up.

Jeremy >>



Yeah, i've just realized that now, sorry everyone for the error on my part. I forgot about that one.

BAJJERFAN

as HRH says Color adds a little BUT forgives a LOT!!

TWODOGS

I have a darkly toned 1939 Walker in an NGC-64 slab. It's pretty in strong light, but the toning is dark enough to inhibit the luster. Technically, I would say that the coin is at least a 65. Beautiful strong strike, absolutely no hard hits.

In this case, I think the toning hurt the grade by at least a point.

rainbowroosie

PCGS will usually downgrade a point for dark toning.

Aethelred

In my opinion a coin that is technically an MS-65, but has outstanding eye-appeal for the grade, would deserve a small "bump." By the same token if a given coin is technically an MS-65, but has negative eye appeal, it should be held back just a bit.

I believe a low end 65 with outstanding toning would still grade 65 but a high end 65 with the same outstanding toning might deserve a 66.

JrGMan2004

Attractive toning is a part of eye appeal... and eye appeal is one part of grading as a whole, though not really part of "technical grading" which is strictly looking at hits and strike. But, eye appeal forgives a little, and adds a lot Fugly toning shouldn't hurt the grade, but attractive toning can help

sliderider

I don't think toning should have any affect on grade. If you crack out and dip the color off of a coin and resubmit it and it comes back a lower grade, was it ever actually the higher grade in the first place?? There's a thread with a rainbow colored dime in a MS68 holder floting around here somewhere, and everytime I look at the pics I find something new concealed in the toning that I don't like. If it doesn't make the grade white, it shouldn't make the grade with color, either.

When toning becomes an important part of the grading equation, how long do you think it will be before the coin doctors concoct a method of artificially toning that is indistinguishable from natural toning and then applying it to lower grade MS coins to get them bumped up so they can sell for an obscene profit??

Do we REALLY want to see MS62 and 63 coins being holdered as 67's and 68's because of color??

airplanenut

Sliderider, remember that it's all about perceived eye appeal. Just as some coins will get a bump, others will take a hit. Take this for example:





I happen to find the deep toning with lustre beneath it quite attractive, but it's possible NGC didn't. I think the coin would grade 63 white, but is in a 62 holder. On the other hand, this coin would likely grade 62 white, but is in a 63 holder:






Jeremy

nwcs

Beautiful toning adds some, ugly toning takes away some, neutral toning has no effect.

silverandvinyl

Very well said Cratylus.

spy88

<< <i>Now you're touching on an area that is a big issue with me. With regards to toning, I think coin grading companies should just butt the hell out of the equation!

Toning falls into the category of personal opinion. What I consider beautiful toning might not be what others consider beautiful toning. Eye appeal should NOT be a grading component. Grading should simply be the ratio of Current Surface Condition to Minted Surface Condition. If and what I pay extra for a coin with what I consider "better eye appeal than normal for the grade" is between me and the dealer. Period. And this notion of "grading is subjective" stems largely because of the whole "eye appeal" nonsense. If they graded a coin based on the ratio I mentioned before, grading would be a LOT less subjective. Either a coin possesses the surface conditions of a certain grade or it doesn't. It's that's simple. >>


I agree 100%! Always have, always will! I would add that any premium considered for eye appeal should be decided by the buyer/bidder(s), not the grader/TPG in the form of added technical points.



<< <i>Okay then -- what's the grade on this one -- from a purely technical standpoint? >>


Michael, from a purely technical point of view, I see numerous hits and scratches in the fields and on the devices, obverse and reverse. I see a fairly good strike but not EDS strong. These qualities have me giving it a 64---possible 65.



<< <i>Think of it this way--one of the points of grading is eye appeal... toning can give a coin better eye appeal. If it becomes that much more attractive, its grade can go up. >>


Jeremy, this is exactly what some of us are against and very well put by Cratylus. Grading is subjective---but within confined limits.
The TPGs have no business deciding for us what eye appeal is worth, especially in the form of altering the grade to reflect their opinion of it. And even tho I agree that Michaels coin is very attractive, if it's graded at/over a 65, I would not want the coin because it doesn't merit those grades. If it were for sale on eBay as a 64, and rainbowroosie and I were interested in bidding on it, this is where any premium for toning should come from---decided by the interested parties only.

As for those of you stating that bad or ugly toning will detract from the coin---I say why then would the owner of such a coin have it graded/slabbed as is? Wouldn't they be much better off having it conserved first? Even a blast white is better then bad toning. I've rarely seen a ugly toned coin in a slab. Those that I have seen, suggests it turned in the holder after it was slabbed, not as submitted.

Myqqy

While I understand the concept of giving certain coins a little bump because they look spectacular, I have a hard time not agreeing with Kranky, Jom, and Cratylus. The grading companies shouldn't be determining which coins deserve a premium, because that does mean the collector will have to pay two premiums......

rainbowroosie

You only have to pay a premium if you buy the coin; if you think the coin is overgraded, don't buy it....why all the fuss? If you think the coin is not worth the money asked, do not buy the coin. We're back to buying what you like....or is the underlying concern a registry concern -- "I have to have that overgraded coin because it gets me more points in the registry???????"..... if registry points drive what you buy, the grading companies really can hose you over..

LeeG

As a person new to collecting, grading is one of the most important things I need to learn to do on my own. Because ultimately, I make the decision on what coins I buy. Right now with my very limited grading skills I'm real nervous about spending money on Raw coins on ebay. Theres so many scams around you have to be careful. I have posted several pictures here to get others opinions to help me gain knowledge in this area. Which is greatly appreciated!
I went to the PCGS Home Page and read what Mr. Bower's wrote about grading. If I read his words correctly, the grade of a coin is strictly a numeric number from Poor to MS. When he was discussing a coins "Value" is when the word "Toning" came up. This was very important to me as I gain knowledge and try to understand "Grade" and "Value" when I'm ready to purchase coins. My 2 cents, Lee.

sliderider

Ok so, then I like bright white, shiny coins. Should I be allowed to crack out a clean, white MS 65 and get it reslabbed as a 68 because I think it has more eye appeal than a toner?? It's ridiculous. Eye appeal should have no bearing on grade. NGC has it right. Coins that are exceptionally clean or exceptionally colorful get a star. They don't get a free ride to the top because of it.

dorkkarl

do you mean "grade" or "slabed grade"?

a "grade" simply an estimate of value. so if the toning raises the value of the coin on the open market, then yes, it does raise the grade of the coin.

K S

Baley

Eye appeal should have no bearing on grade

this is patently ridiculous.

what is luster, if not eye appeal?
degree of wear? eye appeal.
marks, or lack thereof? eye appeal.

I submit that the ONLY thing that has any bearing on grade, is eye appeal.

bushmaster8

<< <i>do you mean "grade" or "slabed grade"?

a "grade" simply an estimate of value. so if the toning raises the value of the coin on the open market, then yes, it does raise the grade of the coin.

K S >>



Dork for president!!

bushmaster8

<< <i>There's a thread with a rainbow colored dime in a MS68 holder floting around here somewhere, and everytime I look at the pics I find something new concealed in the toning that I don't like. >>



Jeez sliderider, get over it!