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TWO 1990 NO S proof LINCOLNS IN COIN WORLD

SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
in PCGS Set Registry Forum
In the latest October 11th issue of Coin World, page 12 there is an ad for two of the rare 1990 no S Lincoln PROOF cents for sale. One is in a regular proof set for $6,595. The other is in a prestige proof set for $300 more. Personally, I can't see why any purchaser of either of these sets would not get it out of the holder and into a PCGS or NGC holder as soon as possible. The reason isn't just for the registries. It's because the COIN, not the entire SET is what is valuable. Over time, Lincoln proof coins can and do tone and or spot. An owner should want the protection of the grading service's guarantee. There is an opportunity here for a couple of registry people to get the key coin to the Lincoln Memorial Proof set at the current market price. Those prices will continue to go higher IMHO. Steveimage
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Comments

  • haletjhaletj Posts: 2,192 ✭
    I would try to find a way to safely store the original set as to insure no spotting or toning occurs, for I love the idea of an orginal 1990 no-S proof or prestige set. If I had a 1913 Liberty nickel I would stick it in a complete set of Proof Liberty Nickels!
  • lloydmincylloydmincy Posts: 1,861 ✭
    There were TWO sets with the NO S for sale at Heritage recent Long Beach. Wanted $5500 as reserve, and NONE SOLD. I'll tell you WHY they will not go up in value. Bought mine (not in set) for under $2000. THER ARE OVER 300 of them. They are all nice. Most should grade pretty high. What I'm basically trying to say is... FAR FROM RARE, AND PLENTY AROUND, and some owners/dealers trying to strike while the iron is HOT by asking TOO MUCH FOR THESE. Not worth over $3000, IMO.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>THER ARE OVER 300 of them. They are all nice. >>



    lloydmincy,

    There are only 49 graded by PCGS and 2 by NGC of the 1990 No "S," free standing and individual. That's after the market desireability is well known.

    I'm not doubting you, but only saying that this comes as a big surprise to me. As I understand what you're saying, there are more than 300 of them out there ungraded and in intact proof sets.

    Can you tell us how you came upon this information, and where all these sets are/have been?

    Thanks!


    Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...



  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Lloyd,
    If you know of sources for these coins at prices under $5,000 please share them with the Lincoln collectors on this forum. The ad in this week's Coin World was the first time I've ever seen more than one set offered at the same time. I just checked the Heritage site. I assume the coins you said did not meet the reserve were NOT in the Heritage auction. Which one were they in and what grades were the coins being offered at? Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Inquiring minds want to know . . .

    auction prices don't support your theory.

    However, I am interested in how many you think are in regular proof sets, and how many were in the Prestige set.
    Doug
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
    Lloydmincy,

    I am telling you that you are WRONG.I will tell you that there are not even 100 of these sets.And I will put my money where my mouth is by offering you $5,500 for every non stained or non spotted set.
    Why don't you sell me yours that you paid $2,000.I will pay you $5,500.Most are probably nice so you could always get another one.
    There is a raw one coming up in a Heritage sale graded as proof 69 D Cameo.

    Stewart

    ps My guess is they will crest at $10,000
  • SethChandlerSethChandler Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭✭
    So which is accurate 100 known or 300?

    How many diff No S Proof Lincoln Cents of any date are there?

    Is the 90 no S the rarest?
    Collecting since 1976.
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>So which is accurate 100 known or 300?

    How many diff No S Proof Lincoln Cents of any date are there?

    Is the 90 no S the rarest? >>




    Seth,
    No one knows exactly how many 1990 No S Lincoln cents exist but only about 50 have been slabbed. The assumption is that "maybe" another 100 or so are still in proof sets (which is a bad idea from a preservation point). The 1990 Proof is the ONLY date in the Lincoln series which has a No S. There is a 1971 nickel and 1968, 1975, 1983 dimes. No quarters, halfs or dollars. The 1990 no S is a rare coin in my opinion if you consider less than 200 rare. If you are talking about no S proof coins, I believe the 1968 no S dime is rarer with maybe less than 10 existing. Check the pop report because I'm doing this from memory. Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭

    I just phoned Coin Depot out of South Carolina and the salesman said they were all sold out of 1990 No s proof sets in both regular and Prestige sets.He said they went FAST.

    Do you think Coin Depot reads the message boards?

    Stewart
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Stewart for the info on the two Coin World ad sets. So this means that people are buying these two RAW coins at $6,600 & $6,900 each and there is no guarantee what PCGS or NGC will slab them at. Could be PR67 or PR68 or PR69 BUT the buyers were willing to take that chance in order to get this coin. I note that the population at PCGS has gone up to 48 in recent months from about 40 at the begining of the year. I would expect it to continue to rise as more of these sets are used in the registries. But, I do agree with Stewart that there are not many out there and there are more people wanting one than can be accomodated. It is in my opinion one of the most beautiful deep cameo proof RARE coin available. Obviously, since it is only 14 years old and the minting technology has improved so much since the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries the owner of one of these rare coins can truly enjoy the fact that a 1990 proof lincoln cent should have an "S" mintmark under the date and this coin does not. A great error coin. Good luck to anyone trying to get one. Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • perfectstrikeperfectstrike Posts: 677 ✭✭
    I think Stewart's price estimate for the PR69DCAM might be low. The one on Teletrade a short while ago, was bid over 11K before it disappeared from my track & bid list.

    perfectstrike
  • lloydmincylloydmincy Posts: 1,861 ✭
    OK,

    I received the mintage ESTIMATE from Heritage and CoinWORLD. Another source said 300, and it might be something simple like the REDBOOK. You can view Heritage's comment about the possible population of the 1990 NO s lincoln (not written exact): "The San Francisco Mint says 3700 is the average number of coins struck from each proof die, and no way to accurately project the mintage of the error. 145 were pulled before delivery though. Many reputable numismatics FEEL that there are fewer than 200 peices extant." Look at permanent auction archives at Heritage, and type subject 1990 NO s lincoln, and all the recent sales in past 5 years will show up.

    I should rewrite my comment. They SHOULD be less than $3,000 each. I believe more and more will continue to show up. How many mom and pop 1990 proof sets are in hands of owners that still have no idea what the issue is??? (The No S).

    Stewart has lowballed (rare!) what the 69 DCAM should go for. 4 recent sales I know of (two private, 2 Heritage), went for between $13,000 and $14,950. Currently 20 PR68DCAM's, and I have one of them. (no spots or any other mark, Stew!!!).

    The risk is (should be) high to me. For example, there are 27 67RD 1916 cents, and they sell for $5000.


    Currently 20 PF68 DCAM 1990 No S, and going for $5,000. I'd like to see the pop of the 1990 No S 68/69 five years from now. I am a big error/great story collector, and got the 1990 No S just because it had no S. No other reason. But if the ESTIMATE is 200 out there, well, you do the economics of supply...
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i> Currently 20 PF68 DCAM 1990 No S, and going for $5,000. I'd like to see the pop of the 1990 No S 68/69 five years from now. I am a big error/great story collector, and got the 1990 No S just because it had no S. No other reason. But if the ESTIMATE is 200 out there, well, you do the economics of supply... >>



    Lloyd,
    I think that five years from now there will be over 100 all grades certified, but more will be in the PR66 and PR67 range than currently because I believe that the government proof cases which are so easy to open allow air in and over the years will tend to cause toning and spoting on these coins. At least with PCGS & NGC the grade is guaranteed. I, like you, am the owner of one of the PR68DCAM's which I made in 1998 from a proof set I bought in 1993 for $1250.
    I disagree with your guess that prices on this coin will go down. With the centenial coming up in five years, I think our coins in the PCGS holders will sell for over $10,000 each. I also disagree that there are hoards of these sets out there sitting in Mom & Pop or grandkid owners hands. The story of this error broke within a couple of months of issue and I believe distribution was extremely limited. Good luck. Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • lloydmincylloydmincy Posts: 1,861 ✭
    It is strange that this error was found almost immediately, but NOW they are getting graded, and selling for so much. Just seems like a lot of conspiracy. (Don't laugh!) The marketing of these (like other coins), and simple grading exposure is now, FINALLY, making them worth so much? I KNOW I am probably wrong about the price going down. I simply said they SHOULD not be worth what they are. Heck, I'm not complaining since I have one, but had I known how strong marketing of coins, and the marketing of registry sets would be, should of bought everything!!! Seems to me, there should be some form of bubble for an item that can only go up in pop reports.

    I compared this coin to the 1916 67RD. Stewart told me pop went up so high (from 14 a year ago to say 28 now), because someone died and had a roll of them. Well, the price went from $8,000 plus (each) to $5000. Just using my brain on supply and demand. I guess if the demand just continues to go through the roof for this 1990 cent, well, the price will too.

    But there is no doubt the supply will go up.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • lloydmincylloydmincy Posts: 1,861 ✭
    Steve:

    Two 1990 sets were for sale at the ANA in Pittsburgh, Heritage. Lot 8411 and 8412 from their signature sale. Neither sold. The reserve was $6900 each. not like I had said. I was watching them, and the highest the bids went for EITHER ONE was $4800 (without juice). At least until the reserve showed up... Maybe they were not very nice.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • phosphatphosphat Posts: 21
    This has been a fascinating thread. Thanks!

    I wondered if anyone would like to comment on the impact of the No S being required for the Lincoln Proof Sets with Varieties (1950 to present and 1959 to present). I know that I looked harder to find one for my sets.

    I found a nice deal last year (on eBay) for a regular proof set (not a Prestige Set) which I bought and sent directly to PCGS for their evaluation. The whole set came up PR69DCAM much to my delight. I have been truly amazed at the range of prices that get tossed around, and have always thought that the registry was the driving force.

    WHat do you think?
    Looking for High End Low Pop PCGS Coins.
  • wayneherndonwayneherndon Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭
    Westwood is running this message on the FACTS teletype:

    SELL 1990 NO "S" SETS AND CENTS

    1990 NO "S" PRES SET P.O.R.
    1990 NO "S" LINCOLN PCGS PROOF-67 DEEP CAMEO SOLD
    1990 NO "S" LINCOLN PCGS PROOF-68 DEEP CAMEO P.O.R.
    1990 NO "S" LINCOLN PCGS PROOF-69 DEEP CAMEO P.O.R.

    ADV THX BILL

    Looks like they have three available.

    WH
    We are: WHRC Wizard PotoPromo
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Steve:

    Two 1990 sets were for sale at the ANA in Pittsburgh, Heritage. Lot 8411 and 8412 from their signature sale. Neither sold. The reserve was $6900 each. not like I had said. I was watching them, and the highest the bids went for EITHER ONE was $4800 (without juice). At least until the reserve showed up... Maybe they were not very nice. >>



    Lloyd,
    The reason I think that those two lots did not sell is bidders did not want to risk over $6,900 for a RAW coin. Obviously, that has now changed with the sale of the two sets thru the Coin World ad.

    I also think that the comparison of the 1916 to this coin is not the same. This coin is perceived as having only a couple of hundred actually produced by the US Mint. The 1916 had 131 million produced by the US Mint. It is GRADE rare in MS 67, but look at how many examples of MS 64, MS 65 and MS 66 RED are available. If someone wants that coin for his collection or his registry it IS available in quantity at reasonable prices. If someone wants the 1990 no S for his collection or his registry there are just not enough available to go around. A simply fact of supply and demand.Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This has been a fascinating thread. Thanks!

    I wondered if anyone would like to comment on the impact of the No S being required for the Lincoln Proof Sets with Varieties (1950 to present and 1959 to present). I know that I looked harder to find one for my sets.

    I found a nice deal last year (on eBay) for a regular proof set (not a Prestige Set) which I bought and sent directly to PCGS for their evaluation. The whole set came up PR69DCAM much to my delight. I have been truly amazed at the range of prices that get tossed around, and have always thought that the registry was the driving force.

    WHat do you think? >>



    Congratulations Phosphat. In PCGS PR69DCAM you have a very special Lincoln cent. There is no doubt that the PCGS registry is driving the prices up on this coin. With so many people who collect modern coinage, they are now getting into modern proof coinage because it "looks" so nice in DCAM contrast. The Lincoln cent remains very popular so it is natural for these people to go for the Lincoln Memorial series in Proof. Within that series all the coins are fairly easy to acquire at reasonable cost except for the 1990 no S and the 3 doubled dies. (Obviously, if you must have all PR69DCAM's you WILL have to pay more and I question if you will ever get your money back doing that). Now there are a large number of people who do NOT collect varieties and therefore will not even want the 1990 no S. In my opinion, the reason that the 3 doubled die varieties (1960 LD/SD, 1960 SD/LD and 1971 DD) are not as expensive as the 1990 no S is because there is also a group of collectors, myself included, who do collect what we consider MAJOR varieties like the 1922 plain, the 1955 doubled die and the 1990 no S but don't collect all the hundreds of what we consider MINOR varieties. Those 3 doubled dies in the varieties Memorial proof set are what I consider minor varieties. But, just like some people only want the BASIC registry collection, everyone can enjoy collecting what they like and put those coins into the registry they like at the grade level they can afford. Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,701 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A much higher percentage of modern collectors collect all or some varieties. There
    are many reasons for this but when you consider the rapidity with which these mar-
    kets are growing then this becomes a big factor.
    Tempus fugit.
  • mozeppamozeppa Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭
    mines only a 68 dcamimage
  • RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328 ✭
    "In my opinion, the reason that the 3 doubled die varieties (1960 LD/SD, 1960 SD/LD and 1971 DD) are not as expensive as the 1990 no S is because there is also a group of collectors, myself included, who do collect what we consider MAJOR varieties like the 1922 plain, the 1955 doubled die and the 1990 no S but don't collect all the hundreds of what we consider MINOR varieties."

    I agree that the 90 is a more MAJOR variety and is much more well known

    BUT

    As far as varieties go, do you consider any other PROOF Lincolns more worthy of inclusion in the registry sets?

    BTW, I gaurantee that the 71 DDO FS-033 is WAY rarer than the 90 No S. In addition, the doubling on it is VERY prominent & not something you need to use "your imagination" to see. Keep in mind, the 90 & the other 3 really aren't in the same league because you have a coin that for all other intents & purposes looks like any other 90 proof but for an omitted mintmark. The others are Double or Triple Dies. IMHO I think it's really apples & oranges. (now where is the little fruit icon thingamajigs :confusedimageimage
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