It is merely a real life example of human nature in less than its finest hour (wealth, money and greed, played out on stage with multiple parties including relatives of the deceased, paramours of the deceased, business associates of the deceased, legal professionals, accounting professionals, coin professionals, tax authorites and a judge all posturing, preening, etc, in an attempt to retain or take a bigger piece of the pie or help those who seek to retain or take same).
The decedent probably could have made more money buying and holding So.Cal. real estate in TO, WLV and Calabasas. The competing valuations for the 191 coins and the 36 coins is laughable. The methodologies of the multiple experts in arriving at the valuation is interesting and probably none of the methodologies can be proven as accurate. The valuations are so widely dispararte that I suspect they could be characterized as MIA ("Made As Instructed"). Funny how the court disregarded the experts' valuations and came up with his own conclusions (essentially "the decedent's opinion of value of the first group of coins came close to the auction proceeds realized; so he must know what the value is; accordingly I will use his valuation of the second group of coins with minor adjustments, particularly since by doing so, I will ensure that the scummy, money grubbing heirs and estate reps will have to watch as the estate is gooned with additional estate taxes and penaltys as punishment for their perfidy).
This story shows how slimey, risky and immoral things can be in the "hobby of kings". >>
First off estate taxes are completely wrong, it is nothing more than double taxation. The deceased paid his taxes and bought these coins with income that was taxed. Death taxes suck, whether they are on the estate or profit from the sale of estate property!
No, "wrong" is filing multi-million dollar fraudulent forms to the IRS. "Wrong" is concluding that laws apply to everyone in America, except oneself, which is exact what these two criminals did.
Julian is correct about the timing of selling. To obtain the best parices, it may require that the collection by sold over a substantial period of time (with attendent marketing/promotion, etc. and with an evaluation of the market as going up, going down or staying flat).
Unfortunately the taxman is not willing to wait, thus estate tax matters require date of death valuations of estate assets (or legally allowed alternative dates which probably are not far from the date of death) and require valuations under scenarios where "forced sales" are simply not recognized.
In the court opinion, the varied appraisals of the values of the coins strikes me as very similar to what happens in real estate appraisals. Wide swings in valuations, based upon who is doing the appraising; based upon who the appraisers customer(s) are; and based upon differing methodologies. In particular it is very funny to see the appraisals on a property generated by a real estate lender at the time that a loan is applied for, at the time a defaulted loan goes into bankruptcy with the lender seeking relief from the bankruptcy stay to foreclose on the collateral; and at the time that a bank with an REO property markets the property for resale. Sometimes these three appraisals can be relavtively close in time (especially the BK and REO appraisals) yet can be quite different in assigned value.
The funny thing is that appraisals are mere "professional opinions" and are not facts. The "Value" of a coin is best determined by what it is purchased and sold for, hopefully between knowledgable buyers and sellers with each knowing all facts and with each under no compulsion to do the deal.
<< <i>The competing valuations for the 191 coins and the 36 coins is laughable. The methodologies of the multiple experts in arriving at the valuation is interesting and probably none of the methodologies can be proven as accurate. The valuations are so widely dispararte that I suspect they could be characterized as MIA ("Made As Instructed"). Funny how the court disregarded the experts' valuations and came up with his own conclusions (essentially "the decedent's opinion of value of the first group of coins came close to the auction proceeds realized; so he must know what the value is; accordingly I will use his valuation of the second group of coins with minor adjustments, particularly since by doing so, I will ensure that the scummy, money grubbing heirs and estate reps will have to watch as the estate is gooned with additional estate taxes and penaltys as punishment for their perfidy).
This story shows how slimey, risky and immoral things can be in the "hobby of kings". >>
What a pompous, arrogant, and ignorant set of statements.
Re appraisals-- I've read my fair share of appraisals (in the corporate context, not the coin context). The results of different appraisers can be very different, although each used a fair methodology that would easily stand up in a court.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
does anyone know anything about the Amazonian patterns? are they cleaned or varnished?
They have not been cleaned or varnished. All are gems or close enough, and all have been alternating between various TPG holders. Last time I looked they were all in the 64-67 range.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I can promise you that the Amazonians will never be Cams or Deep Cams. The surfaces are not deep mirror proofs. They are more like the 1859 pattern halves, with many striations in the fields.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Comments
<< <i>Interesting read, no doubt.
It is merely a real life example of human nature in less than its finest hour (wealth, money and greed, played out on stage with multiple parties including relatives of the deceased, paramours of the deceased, business associates of the deceased, legal professionals, accounting professionals, coin professionals, tax authorites and a judge all posturing, preening, etc, in an attempt to retain or take a bigger piece of the pie or help those who seek to retain or take same).
The decedent probably could have made more money buying and holding So.Cal. real estate in TO, WLV and Calabasas. The competing valuations for the 191 coins and the 36 coins is laughable. The methodologies of the multiple experts in arriving at the valuation is interesting and probably none of the methodologies can be proven as accurate. The valuations are so widely dispararte that I suspect they could be characterized as MIA ("Made As Instructed"). Funny how the court disregarded the experts' valuations and came up with his own conclusions (essentially "the decedent's opinion of value of the first group of coins came close to the auction proceeds realized; so he must know what the value is; accordingly I will use his valuation of the second group of coins with minor adjustments, particularly since by doing so, I will ensure that the scummy, money grubbing heirs and estate reps will have to watch as the estate is gooned with additional estate taxes and penaltys as punishment for their perfidy).
This story shows how slimey, risky and immoral things can be in the "hobby of kings". >>
First off estate taxes are completely wrong, it is nothing more than double taxation. The deceased paid his taxes and bought these coins
with income that was taxed. Death taxes suck, whether they are on the estate or profit from the sale of estate property!
Except when it isn't.....
First off estate taxes are completely wrong,
No, "wrong" is filing multi-million dollar fraudulent forms to the IRS. "Wrong" is concluding that laws apply to everyone in America, except oneself, which is exact what these two criminals did.
Unfortunately the taxman is not willing to wait, thus estate tax matters require date of death valuations of estate assets (or legally allowed alternative dates which probably are not far from the date of death) and require valuations under scenarios where "forced sales" are simply not recognized.
In the court opinion, the varied appraisals of the values of the coins strikes me as very similar to what happens in real estate appraisals. Wide swings in valuations, based upon who is doing the appraising; based upon who the appraisers customer(s) are; and based upon differing methodologies. In particular it is very funny to see the appraisals on a property generated by a real estate lender at the time that a loan is applied for, at the time a defaulted loan goes into bankruptcy with the lender seeking relief from the bankruptcy stay to foreclose on the collateral; and at the time that a bank with an REO property markets the property for resale. Sometimes these three appraisals can be relavtively close in time (especially the BK and REO appraisals) yet can be quite different in assigned value.
The funny thing is that appraisals are mere "professional opinions" and are not facts. The "Value" of a coin is best determined by what it is purchased and sold for, hopefully between knowledgable buyers and sellers with each knowing all facts and with each under no compulsion to do the deal.
<< <i>The competing valuations for the 191 coins and the 36 coins is laughable. The methodologies of the multiple experts in arriving at the valuation is interesting and probably none of the methodologies can be proven as accurate. The valuations are so widely dispararte that I suspect they could be characterized as MIA ("Made As Instructed"). Funny how the court disregarded the experts' valuations and came up with his own conclusions (essentially "the decedent's opinion of value of the first group of coins came close to the auction proceeds realized; so he must know what the value is; accordingly I will use his valuation of the second group of coins with minor adjustments, particularly since by doing so, I will ensure that the scummy, money grubbing heirs and estate reps will have to watch as the estate is gooned with additional estate taxes and penaltys as punishment for their perfidy).
This story shows how slimey, risky and immoral things can be in the "hobby of kings". >>
What a pompous, arrogant, and ignorant set of statements.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
They have not been cleaned or varnished. All are gems or close enough, and all have been alternating between various TPG holders. Last time I looked they were all in the 64-67 range.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I love the way PCGS and NGC compete on these great rarities to get and keep them in their company's holders.
Coin Rarities Online
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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