Some thoughts on Grading, Toning and Body Bags.
Newmismatist
Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
This thread is prompted by the several threads that have been posted recently regarding 2 toned Morgans that were purchased on ebay rather inexpensively and then offered for sale by a well respected dealer at a significantly higher price. I don’t know the original ebay seller, nor Anaconda who currently owns the coins, but I do know tonekiller who purchased the coins on ebay and who sold them to Anaconda as I have purchased several very nice toned Morgans from Tonekiller (and which I am very pleased to own).
1st and foremost - I am quite surprised at all of the assumptions that have been made regarding both the coins and the 2 dealers involved. There has been wild speculation about the motives of these two individuals, and allegations of “conspiracy” and “fraud” on their part have been insinuated by more than one fellow board member. Sadly, this is not based on facts, but seems motivated by animus and perhaps even envy.
Before I remark further, I want to comment on a practice that occurs regularly on these boards. A member posts that he went to a show or a dealers store and bought a coin that is worth much more than they paid for it - maybe it’s a variety, an early cameo’d Franklin proof purchased for bid/ask in an original proof set, or a woefully under-graded coin that when re-submitted will upgraded by 1-2 points and in the next grade up may be worth many multiples of what the buyer paid for the coin. The near universal reaction by board members to these posts is: great!, what a rip!, I’ll pay you $xx more (it’s really worth $xxxx more) or “You Suck” (apparently the ultimate accolade for ripping a coin for far less than it’s real value). No one seems to be bothered that our intrepid forum member may have used his “superior” knowledge of that particular coin to his (or her) advantage and pay much less than what it could be sold for. Maybe the real error on the part of Tonekiller and Anaconda is that they tried make their profit without first obtaining the requisite 30 or 40 compliments for “ripping” the coins in question, or worse yet had the audacity to offer them for sale publically at a rather hefty profit, as if a coin dealer making a profit was some type of illegal practice. Profits are certainly not “illegal” and if it’s really “not the money, but the amount”, then there are quite a few hypocrites lurking on these boards. I bought Microsoft for $1 a share (adjusted for spilts) several years ago - am I allowed to sell it for only twice what I paid for it - even if current market value is $25? I picked an uncirculated 1931-S penny from an original roll for 50¢ in 1950 - if I pay $30 to PCGS and it slabs MS67RD (a Pop 1/None finer coin) am I limited to selling it for $61, (2X cost) or can I ask $100, or maybe it's worth $10,000 to someone who wants to knock Stewart off his spot as the #1Lincoln registry set. Plainly stated, a hefty profit, while it may look obscene, is not illegal, particularly if offered in an auction venue with the buyer having the right to play or pass and the price ultimately paid is determined by the BUYER, not the Seller. What the seller paid is relevant only to the Seller’s accountant and the IRS when he files his income tax return.
BODY-BAGS - true horror stories, based on personal knowledge: A type 2 Proof Liberty $20 is submitted to PCGS - the premise is that this is a wonderful, unhairlined coin that came out of a PR64 holder and the owner (myself) is absolutely convinced that it is a Pr65. Why? - because I previously owned the same date Proof $20 and it resided in a Pr65 slab and when held side by side, the non-Pr65 coin was NICER – a somewhat good standard to use for a coin of which there were only 25 made by the mint. Submitted several times and the coin did not upgrade - waited a year and re-submitted it raw at a show - It came back in a Body-Bag. That was at least a $30,000+ body-bag - the stated reason “edge damage”. With a 16x loupe I looked at every reed on that coin and I looked at every dentical - there was NOTHING wrong with that coin - it was just as original as when I submitted it the 1st time. I asked the dealer who submitted it for me (non-dealers couldn’t submit directly at this time) what was going on - his comment - “happens all the time - they just want another grading fee - and they know you’ll have to re-submit it.” I did, and on the very next submission it came back slabbed as a Pr65 - and then crossed into the holder of the service that had BB’s it. By the way, that coin looked like a shot Pr66 coin after it resided in that Pr65 holder - it was sold about 8 years ago and according to the PCGS Pop Reports it’s still Pop1/none finer. My point - the fact that coins are sometimes under-graded or sometimes BB’d does not make them unsaleable or worth only melt, particularly when you take into account that grading is an only an OPINION and like all subjective opinions, it may be differ from the opinion of others or even be different by the same grader at a different time. Is this an aberration? I think NOT - there are several dealers you make a living buying coins that they believe to be under-graded and after one or more re-submissions obtaining a higher grade for that coin, and take further note - both PCGS and NGC make a lot of money re-grading the same coin - both in the slab and raw. This is not a practice that they discourage. So an ABSOLUTE statement that because ANACS, PCGS or NGC have said that a coin is XX grade or will not grade, is not a mathematical truth like 2+2=4; It is an opinion only and quite subject to future change.
Another true story - I have a common date Unc IHC - from my personal collection that I’ve had since the mid 1950's - I decide to have several of the nicer coins graded - one in particular I believe to be a MS65RD - send it to PCGS - comes back MS64RD - every dealer who looks at it loves it and offers to pay premium money over MS64RD - I think it’s a MS65RD - re-submit it raw - comes back in a BB - QT! ( coin is only worth a few hundred dollars - so it still sits in the BB with the old PCGS MS64RD insert next to it - not something to loose sleep over - not "edge damage" like that $50K Proof $20) - An even worse true story - I bought the Eliasburg 1909 Proof $20 at the US Gold Collection sale in 1982 - graded a Gem Pr67 in the catalogue - killer coin - original and never messed with - it may have been bought directly from the mint by Clapp and then it was later sold to Elaisburg along with Clapp's entire collection. When PCGS started grading coins (1986)- it was submitted - it graded Pr63!! - Why? - it had die striations - the PCGS graders (who then had probably seen very few original Roman Finish proof $20s) confused die striations with hairlines and significantly downgraded that coin - I quickly removed it from the woefully under-graded slab and put it back in the nice 8 x 10 Capital holder - it was later sold to a dealer who was delighted to get this very rare, completely original and never messed with coin with a pedigree to the Eliasburg Gold collection. Wish I had it back! Now these examples are not based on what someone told me happened - they are based on what happened to coins that I owned and that I submitted for grading ( the proof gold thru the required dealer, the inexpensive IHC thru my PCGS Collectors Club account). Anyone who thinks that the major reputable Third Party Grading services are 100% right, 100% of the time is going to be 100% wrong.
WHAT ABOUT TONING? - we all know that the grading services “sometimes” make mistakes on the numerical grade (right - like the over-graded coins that are in all of the major holders that you wouldn’t pay ½ of bid for - or the under-graded coin that you paid PQ money and you know it’s really the next grade up because it’s better than 90% of the slabbed coins - same service too - that you have in the next higher grade in the series that you collect) - - BUT toning - well “ALL” the reputable third party grading services can detect the AT stuff from the NT stuff - Right!?? Well, not exactly - about 10 years ago a fabulous collection came out of a bank vault in Pennsylvania - lots of beautifully toned 19th century Seated and Barber coins - Guess what? - 1st submissions - all BB’d - “looked too colorful, couldn’t be real - Had to be AT” - Subsequently ALL graded as NT - Did they get it right the 1st time or the 2nd time? The coins had sat in a bank vault undisturbed for 30+ years - what do you think? But what about the colorful modern Proof Jefferson nickels that are floating around - In PCGS slabs, no less? Apparently PCGS will no longer slab nickels that have this Bright intense-color look - they are now believed by some to be AT, NOT NT. I’ve heard (but have no knowledge) that one of our fellow forum members submitted them for grading after they sat “undisturbed” in a hot attic for an “unknown” length of time.
Or how about this - (of which I do have personal knowledge) - Collector sees a intensely lustrous toned Morgan, beautiful colors, coin is like a neon headlight - Greens, reds and golds that take your breath away - Coin is in a PCI holder and is being sold AS IS with a no refund/no return policy - at a major show - would YOU buy that coin? Well, I did and a dealer who specializes in toned coins recently confided to me that HE would NOT have bought that coin. I asked why not? - his explanation - it was like buying a raw coin and at the price quoted, there was too much downside risk if it would not be graded by PCGS or NGC - It did cross, now in a NGC MS66* holder I call it the "Christmas Tree" and it glows like its lit up with colorful christmas lights. I’ve had multiple unsolicited offers to buy that coin. Or how about the partial collection of Unc Buffalos that I put together between 1953 and 1963 and sat in a Library of Coins album until the late 90s when I found it at the bottom of my safety deposit box when my bank closed the branch and I had to take all my coins to another bank - When the collection was submitted for grading, the 5 most beautifully toned Buffs came back AT - apparently 35 yrs in the album was not long enough, they must have needed another 20 years before they were “NT”.
What’s the point - Well here’s the simply truth - Sometime the grading services get it wrong, both as to the numerical grade and the AT/NT controversy - sometimes their “mistake” can cost you money - sometimes it can make you money - just depends on the coin, the grade and what it looks like - and for that, every coin collector who buys coins needs to become an educated collector and LEARN how to grade and how to distinguish real toning from “enhanced” toning - that takes effort, it takes an open mind, a willingness to learn, the courage to ask questions and most of all the intelligence to listen to the answers and assimilate the knowledge being offered with the coin you’re looking at visually. One more comment - which everyone here seems to conveniently forget: You CANNOT grade, or determine real toning from artificial toning from an image on a computer screen - photos can hide things that appear obvious in hand, and with regard to color, it is very difficult to accurately capture the nuances of color in an image - and the nuances - the way the colors refract and reflect, the variance that you see as you rotate the coin in the light - are the very things that are REQUIRED to detemine the difference between AT and NT - and one’s ability to render an OPINION as to what it is. For those who believe they can grade and distinguish AT from NT from a photo, try getting your doctor to examine you for your annual physical by sending him your photo - be sure to tell him that he does not need to bother with the physical part of the examine - all he needs to do is look at the photo (side benefit - it’ll avoid that nasty rectal examine).
This post is not intended to disparage anyone, nor is it a diatribe against the grading services - it points out what I believe to be a universal truth: none of us have “perfect” grading skills; the grading services that make a concerted effort to grade based on a high level of knowledge and skill and continuous desire to educate themselves as to the varied aspects of grading will “get it right” about 80% of the time, but there is a margin of error both as to toning and the numerical grade that is always there - some they win and some they loose - and it’s in that grey (sometimes even yellow or blue too) area that the debate rages. Keep in mind that everyone of the graders puts his pants on just like you and I do - one leg at a time - (and sometime they forget to zip the zipper) ‘Nuff said
1st and foremost - I am quite surprised at all of the assumptions that have been made regarding both the coins and the 2 dealers involved. There has been wild speculation about the motives of these two individuals, and allegations of “conspiracy” and “fraud” on their part have been insinuated by more than one fellow board member. Sadly, this is not based on facts, but seems motivated by animus and perhaps even envy.
Before I remark further, I want to comment on a practice that occurs regularly on these boards. A member posts that he went to a show or a dealers store and bought a coin that is worth much more than they paid for it - maybe it’s a variety, an early cameo’d Franklin proof purchased for bid/ask in an original proof set, or a woefully under-graded coin that when re-submitted will upgraded by 1-2 points and in the next grade up may be worth many multiples of what the buyer paid for the coin. The near universal reaction by board members to these posts is: great!, what a rip!, I’ll pay you $xx more (it’s really worth $xxxx more) or “You Suck” (apparently the ultimate accolade for ripping a coin for far less than it’s real value). No one seems to be bothered that our intrepid forum member may have used his “superior” knowledge of that particular coin to his (or her) advantage and pay much less than what it could be sold for. Maybe the real error on the part of Tonekiller and Anaconda is that they tried make their profit without first obtaining the requisite 30 or 40 compliments for “ripping” the coins in question, or worse yet had the audacity to offer them for sale publically at a rather hefty profit, as if a coin dealer making a profit was some type of illegal practice. Profits are certainly not “illegal” and if it’s really “not the money, but the amount”, then there are quite a few hypocrites lurking on these boards. I bought Microsoft for $1 a share (adjusted for spilts) several years ago - am I allowed to sell it for only twice what I paid for it - even if current market value is $25? I picked an uncirculated 1931-S penny from an original roll for 50¢ in 1950 - if I pay $30 to PCGS and it slabs MS67RD (a Pop 1/None finer coin) am I limited to selling it for $61, (2X cost) or can I ask $100, or maybe it's worth $10,000 to someone who wants to knock Stewart off his spot as the #1Lincoln registry set. Plainly stated, a hefty profit, while it may look obscene, is not illegal, particularly if offered in an auction venue with the buyer having the right to play or pass and the price ultimately paid is determined by the BUYER, not the Seller. What the seller paid is relevant only to the Seller’s accountant and the IRS when he files his income tax return.
BODY-BAGS - true horror stories, based on personal knowledge: A type 2 Proof Liberty $20 is submitted to PCGS - the premise is that this is a wonderful, unhairlined coin that came out of a PR64 holder and the owner (myself) is absolutely convinced that it is a Pr65. Why? - because I previously owned the same date Proof $20 and it resided in a Pr65 slab and when held side by side, the non-Pr65 coin was NICER – a somewhat good standard to use for a coin of which there were only 25 made by the mint. Submitted several times and the coin did not upgrade - waited a year and re-submitted it raw at a show - It came back in a Body-Bag. That was at least a $30,000+ body-bag - the stated reason “edge damage”. With a 16x loupe I looked at every reed on that coin and I looked at every dentical - there was NOTHING wrong with that coin - it was just as original as when I submitted it the 1st time. I asked the dealer who submitted it for me (non-dealers couldn’t submit directly at this time) what was going on - his comment - “happens all the time - they just want another grading fee - and they know you’ll have to re-submit it.” I did, and on the very next submission it came back slabbed as a Pr65 - and then crossed into the holder of the service that had BB’s it. By the way, that coin looked like a shot Pr66 coin after it resided in that Pr65 holder - it was sold about 8 years ago and according to the PCGS Pop Reports it’s still Pop1/none finer. My point - the fact that coins are sometimes under-graded or sometimes BB’d does not make them unsaleable or worth only melt, particularly when you take into account that grading is an only an OPINION and like all subjective opinions, it may be differ from the opinion of others or even be different by the same grader at a different time. Is this an aberration? I think NOT - there are several dealers you make a living buying coins that they believe to be under-graded and after one or more re-submissions obtaining a higher grade for that coin, and take further note - both PCGS and NGC make a lot of money re-grading the same coin - both in the slab and raw. This is not a practice that they discourage. So an ABSOLUTE statement that because ANACS, PCGS or NGC have said that a coin is XX grade or will not grade, is not a mathematical truth like 2+2=4; It is an opinion only and quite subject to future change.
Another true story - I have a common date Unc IHC - from my personal collection that I’ve had since the mid 1950's - I decide to have several of the nicer coins graded - one in particular I believe to be a MS65RD - send it to PCGS - comes back MS64RD - every dealer who looks at it loves it and offers to pay premium money over MS64RD - I think it’s a MS65RD - re-submit it raw - comes back in a BB - QT! ( coin is only worth a few hundred dollars - so it still sits in the BB with the old PCGS MS64RD insert next to it - not something to loose sleep over - not "edge damage" like that $50K Proof $20) - An even worse true story - I bought the Eliasburg 1909 Proof $20 at the US Gold Collection sale in 1982 - graded a Gem Pr67 in the catalogue - killer coin - original and never messed with - it may have been bought directly from the mint by Clapp and then it was later sold to Elaisburg along with Clapp's entire collection. When PCGS started grading coins (1986)- it was submitted - it graded Pr63!! - Why? - it had die striations - the PCGS graders (who then had probably seen very few original Roman Finish proof $20s) confused die striations with hairlines and significantly downgraded that coin - I quickly removed it from the woefully under-graded slab and put it back in the nice 8 x 10 Capital holder - it was later sold to a dealer who was delighted to get this very rare, completely original and never messed with coin with a pedigree to the Eliasburg Gold collection. Wish I had it back! Now these examples are not based on what someone told me happened - they are based on what happened to coins that I owned and that I submitted for grading ( the proof gold thru the required dealer, the inexpensive IHC thru my PCGS Collectors Club account). Anyone who thinks that the major reputable Third Party Grading services are 100% right, 100% of the time is going to be 100% wrong.
WHAT ABOUT TONING? - we all know that the grading services “sometimes” make mistakes on the numerical grade (right - like the over-graded coins that are in all of the major holders that you wouldn’t pay ½ of bid for - or the under-graded coin that you paid PQ money and you know it’s really the next grade up because it’s better than 90% of the slabbed coins - same service too - that you have in the next higher grade in the series that you collect) - - BUT toning - well “ALL” the reputable third party grading services can detect the AT stuff from the NT stuff - Right!?? Well, not exactly - about 10 years ago a fabulous collection came out of a bank vault in Pennsylvania - lots of beautifully toned 19th century Seated and Barber coins - Guess what? - 1st submissions - all BB’d - “looked too colorful, couldn’t be real - Had to be AT” - Subsequently ALL graded as NT - Did they get it right the 1st time or the 2nd time? The coins had sat in a bank vault undisturbed for 30+ years - what do you think? But what about the colorful modern Proof Jefferson nickels that are floating around - In PCGS slabs, no less? Apparently PCGS will no longer slab nickels that have this Bright intense-color look - they are now believed by some to be AT, NOT NT. I’ve heard (but have no knowledge) that one of our fellow forum members submitted them for grading after they sat “undisturbed” in a hot attic for an “unknown” length of time.
Or how about this - (of which I do have personal knowledge) - Collector sees a intensely lustrous toned Morgan, beautiful colors, coin is like a neon headlight - Greens, reds and golds that take your breath away - Coin is in a PCI holder and is being sold AS IS with a no refund/no return policy - at a major show - would YOU buy that coin? Well, I did and a dealer who specializes in toned coins recently confided to me that HE would NOT have bought that coin. I asked why not? - his explanation - it was like buying a raw coin and at the price quoted, there was too much downside risk if it would not be graded by PCGS or NGC - It did cross, now in a NGC MS66* holder I call it the "Christmas Tree" and it glows like its lit up with colorful christmas lights. I’ve had multiple unsolicited offers to buy that coin. Or how about the partial collection of Unc Buffalos that I put together between 1953 and 1963 and sat in a Library of Coins album until the late 90s when I found it at the bottom of my safety deposit box when my bank closed the branch and I had to take all my coins to another bank - When the collection was submitted for grading, the 5 most beautifully toned Buffs came back AT - apparently 35 yrs in the album was not long enough, they must have needed another 20 years before they were “NT”.
What’s the point - Well here’s the simply truth - Sometime the grading services get it wrong, both as to the numerical grade and the AT/NT controversy - sometimes their “mistake” can cost you money - sometimes it can make you money - just depends on the coin, the grade and what it looks like - and for that, every coin collector who buys coins needs to become an educated collector and LEARN how to grade and how to distinguish real toning from “enhanced” toning - that takes effort, it takes an open mind, a willingness to learn, the courage to ask questions and most of all the intelligence to listen to the answers and assimilate the knowledge being offered with the coin you’re looking at visually. One more comment - which everyone here seems to conveniently forget: You CANNOT grade, or determine real toning from artificial toning from an image on a computer screen - photos can hide things that appear obvious in hand, and with regard to color, it is very difficult to accurately capture the nuances of color in an image - and the nuances - the way the colors refract and reflect, the variance that you see as you rotate the coin in the light - are the very things that are REQUIRED to detemine the difference between AT and NT - and one’s ability to render an OPINION as to what it is. For those who believe they can grade and distinguish AT from NT from a photo, try getting your doctor to examine you for your annual physical by sending him your photo - be sure to tell him that he does not need to bother with the physical part of the examine - all he needs to do is look at the photo (side benefit - it’ll avoid that nasty rectal examine).
This post is not intended to disparage anyone, nor is it a diatribe against the grading services - it points out what I believe to be a universal truth: none of us have “perfect” grading skills; the grading services that make a concerted effort to grade based on a high level of knowledge and skill and continuous desire to educate themselves as to the varied aspects of grading will “get it right” about 80% of the time, but there is a margin of error both as to toning and the numerical grade that is always there - some they win and some they loose - and it’s in that grey (sometimes even yellow or blue too) area that the debate rages. Keep in mind that everyone of the graders puts his pants on just like you and I do - one leg at a time - (and sometime they forget to zip the zipper) ‘Nuff said
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
0
Comments
it is just unfortunate that all that other nonsense was not as interesting
Best,
Billy
With regard to resale...you charge what the market will bear. A dealer may have a $30.00 coin priced at $500.00 but that doesn't mean you HAVE to buy it. You may shake your head and wonder what this person is thinking, but if someone comes along and buys it they must have felt it was worth the money. If they buy the coin before they buy the book (and I think we've ALL been there) then shame on them.
The dealer uses his/her superior knowledge to earn a profit and a living in coins just as some of us use our superior knowledge in our own areas of expertise to do the same.
I can't even begin to count the number of people on thisforum that made a purchase years ago for a few bucks and re-sold it recently for many, many times more than they paid.
If I paid $40k for a house 30 years ago, does that mean that I am limited to selling it for no more than $40k today?
Business people are in business to make money. They take risks that most people find scary and sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Nobody ever says, "Gee...that poor dealer just lost a bundle", but they don't wast ANY time complaining, "You see how much that scumbag marked that coin up?"
People need to get a grip. If you don't like how a dealer is conducting his/her business then don't patronize them and, instead, quit your day job, write up your own business plan, buy some inventory, live out of a suitcase, live hand-to-mouth every now and then and be in the business and run it they way you feel every business should be run. You will soon learn that it isn't a bed of roses.
Cheers,
Bob
...we now return you to your regularly scheduled banter
One minor dispute: The "You Suck" accolade is in my mind one that is given to anyone for an especially nice coin and has nothing necessarily to do with how the coin was acquired or how much ws paid for it.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Newmismatist, thanks for the fantastic thread. Excellent information. I really love the "real world" experiences that you write about.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
So, I'm surprised that the coin was sold with any concern about it's originality, especailly knowing who the seller was. And, I'm also surprised another specialist in toned material thought the piece was AT. I suppose it just goes to show that resolving AT vs. NT is not as clearcut as some on this forum may suggest it is. That's why, in part, I discussed market acceptability in another thread a few days ago as an alternative approach to help resolve the small proportion of cases where originality cannot be clearly established.
I only question...
<< <i>One minor dispute: The "You Suck" accolade is in my mind one that is given to anyone for an especially nice coin and has nothing necessarily to do with how the coin was acquired or how much ws paid for it. >>
Although that may in all reality be true, It seems to me that "You Suck" is applied most often to individuals that get a great coin at a great price.
Steve
Kerry/Edwards
How long would it take for a real estate broker to go to jail for selling property at 70% commission? Again, the investment gain or loss on the property has nothing to do with the transaction margin.
The coin hobby/industry is, for the most part, caveat emptor - "let the buyer beware". There are no ethics. However, some dealers belong to the ANA and/or PNG and are supposedly governed by a code of ethics. Part of the intent is to protect novice collectors from getting paid 20 cents on the dollar for coins they sell, in other words, reasonable transactions margins for the market value at that point in time. The market price change from that point in time has nothing to do with the transaction margin.
If all coin dealers want to become scumbags and give widows and novice collectors 20 cents on the dollar for coins, then lets get rid of the ANA/PNG dealer code of ethics.
Bill
These are all very subjective areas of our hobby that make coin collecting very interesting to me, and which thankfully personalize the pursuit and evaluation of coins. That's the stuff that coin transactions are made of -- it makes the buyer wish to purchase the coin being offered at a price which usually gives the seller some profit. That coin may be worth more to the buyer than it was to the seller.
Third Party Grading services have added a certain amount of scrutiny, authentication and standardization to coin evaluation, but there are still many aspects (including grading and market value) which have quite a bit of subjectvity left in them -- which I feel is a good thing.
In my opinion, the problem is that it can be difficult to have an intelligent debate on this forum, because of certain flame-thrower forum members who immediately move into attack mode to pick a fight rather than intelligently and calmly discussing an issue. These are usually the people who are not interested in listening and learning from others' experiences, but are on some type of mission.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Great thread!
Michael
jom
<< <i>Nice thread, Ron. I'm surprised to hear that about the Christmas Tree coin. I've seen it in person, as you know, and it never entered my mind that it might be AT. Further, the original PCI holder presumably identifed the coin as coming from the Cork collection. Anyone who has seen the pieces from his collection will realize they are NT. As an aside, I have 2 such PCI-66 pieces, and I keep them in their PCI "'T.Cork Estate: Rainbow Toned " holders because I think their cachet is quaint.
So, I'm surprised that the coin was sold with any concern about it's originality, especailly knowing who the seller was. And, I'm also surprised another specialist in toned material thought the piece was AT. I suppose it just goes to show that resolving AT vs. NT is not as clearcut as some on this forum may suggest it is. That's why, in part, I discussed market acceptability in another thread a few days ago as an alternative approach to help resolve the small proportion of cases where originality cannot be clearly established. >>
I don't think the other dealer thought the coin was AT - In fact I'm sure he believes (as do I) it to be absolutely original bag toning - His point to me was that IF he couldn't get it into a PCGS holder or an NGC holder that he might not be able to sell it, or he perhaps more accuratel, he might not be able to sell it for a profit - and yes it is also pedigreed to the T Cork Estate and I learned later that Mr. Cork was a Connoisseur of high end toned coins - but my real point is that under the circumstance of my purchase it was a "You buy it - you own it" - no return - so the thought did cross my mind "what's wrong with this non-PCGS/NGC coin" I found out later that Mr. Cork wanted his name on the label and PCI was very accomadting to his request - I still have the PCI label - as NGC would not continue the pedigree.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>The analogies given are confusing investment gains/losses with transaction margins. Would you purchase a stock with a 70% commission? Penny stock dealers have done this for years, and many are serving jail time for this. The capital gain or loss after the sale is completely irrelevant to the transaction margins. >>
Bill
As far as I can tell you've confused the concept of selling something on commission which is a % of the transaction price - like an Auction house's fee for cataloguing, listing and selling a coin in a public venue - which is a fixed amount and not dependant on whether the consignor makes money or looses money. What most coin dealers do is BUY coins at a price acceptable to them, and then sell the coin at what they believe it to be worth in the open market - They RISK their capital, pay their overhead, employees, show expenses etc OUT of the GROSS profits and make their living from the net profit - Most jewlery stores mark up their goods 2-5 times, furniture stores 100% (or more) - Profit is the motive for every dealer that I know to buy and sell coins - they are not in business to loose money - I'm not sugessting that the profit margins that are noted in the original post are fair or unfair - I AM suggesting that if a dealer buys a coin for $XX and deteermines its fair market value to be $XXXX, that there is nothing wrong with his selling it at what he or she feels is the fair market value. We as the collecting consumer DON'T have to buy that commodity, period end of story - If they ask too much it won't sell. The example of a 70% commission is not relevent to the transactions that were discussed in the other posts - they were not COMMISSION sales (or attmpted sales). They were "I bought it, I own it, this is what I want for it" OFFERS of Sale. Big difference.
Two factors are different in those situaltions - 1) the "COSTS" of the coins were in the public venue and are now known to anyone who takes the time to find out what the original sale price was; and 2) One of the grading services (ANANCS) believes and siad publically that it is their OPINION that the coin is AT - Neither dealer believes that too be true - they each bought the coin on the premise that the toning is NOT AT - they are taking Market RISK - if they're correct - then they make money - if they're wrong then they (or at least one of theM) will either loose money - or become a "Collector" of one or both of those coins.
I haven't seen either of those coins in person and without holding them in my hand I would NEVER venture an OPINION as to whether I believed them to be NT or AT - Those who purport to be able to grade coins from images on computer screens have an ability that I will never possess, nor am I so arrogant that I would even attempt to determine AT/NT in that manner - the fact that ANACS believed it to be AT, might be something that I would consider, but until I see those coins in a good light and carefully examine them, I would not venture an opinion as to the originality of the toning.
It really IS that simple (and I don't think any medical doctor would give you a diagnosis from a picture)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
OH - here's the 1923 version - a little more subdued - but those Peace dollors never have the POP that the PL Morgans have - (Killer coin but the image is a bit dark)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
When I first learned the infamous $7500 morgan that started all this was originally proclaimed by anacs as at, my first thought was of a local dealer who purchased 3 unopened bags of common date morgans. He sent the 400 or so toners (as well as the higher grade pieces) to pcgs for grading. They slabbed about 300 of the coins, and sent the others back in bodybags! They were all from the same bags! Anyways, he resubmitted the returns, and half were slabbed on the second submission. He expected these results, and simply said "it's the game". The rejects were sent to ngc, and are now all holdered.
I guess my point is the services tend to be conservative, especially with color. A reject from anacs may grade with anacs on it's second (or third) time around, but the coin remains the same. I believe it only takes 1 of the graders to bb a coin, while 2 of the experts may have deemed it real. Wouldn't that cause a stir, if in the future slabs had '2 out of 3 graders say 64, 1 says 65 therefore net ms64.6!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i><< This thread needs to spend some time at the top.
When I first learned the infamous $7500 morgan that started all this was originally proclaimed by anacs as at, my first thought was of a local dealer who purchased 3 unopened bags of common date morgans. He sent the 400 or so toners (as well as the higher grade pieces) to pcgs for grading. They slabbed about 300 of the coins, and sent the others back in bodybags! They were all from the same bags! Anyways, he resubmitted the returns, and half were slabbed on the second submission. He expected these results, and simply said "it's the game". The rejects were sent to ngc, and are now all holdered.
I guess my point is the services tend to be conservative, especially with color. A reject from anacs may grade with anacs on it's second (or third) time around, but the coin remains the same. I believe it only takes 1 of the graders to bb a coin, while 2 of the experts may have deemed it real. Wouldn't that cause a stir, if in the future slabs had '2 out of 3 graders say 64, 1 says 65 therefore net ms64.6! >> >>
Hadleydog - You've got it!
BTW - How'd your local dealer AT a whole bag of coins?
Whoops double post my computer thingy went round and round and then said error
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
That's a terrible pic of a nice toned Peace $. I think you should send it to me so I can get some better pics of it for you!
Michael
<< <i>Ron
That's a terrible pic of a nice toned Peace $. I think you should send it to me so I can get some better pics of it for you!
Michael >>
I would, except it might get too close to those onions
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Toned Coins for sale @ tonedcointrader.com
<< <i>With a 16x loupe I looked at every reed on that coin and I looked at every dentical - there was NOTHING wrong with that coin >>
Was the rim filed? Not so easy to tell sometimes if you are not looking for it. mike
<< <i>... I believe it only takes 1 of the graders to bb a coin, while 2 of the experts may have deemed it real. >>
Hmmmm. Can anyone confirm or dispute this? How about somebody asks HRH about this in the Q&A forum? ( I would ask myself, except for the fact that he steadfastly neglects to answer any questions I pose.)
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Excellent and well written post.
Thanks
Allen
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