Wooden PCGS Boxes
Scavenger
Posts: 987
Does anybody know if the green label holders will fit into the new boxes?
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Russ, NCNE
Jerry
<< <i>From Redlines conversation with Mr. David Scott, Head Curator of Metals at the Getty Conservation Institute "If you want to display your cars, do not, I repeat DO NOT, display them in wooden display cases, especially ones with unpainted/unvarnished surfaces. Doesn’t matter what kind of wood — just don’t do it. If you currently have cars in such a case, I highly recommend you remove them AT ONCE. The organic acids from the wood will really eat away at the cars, particularly if the case closes fairly airtight. >>
Hi there
I saw your post and thought you might be interested in some information about storing metal in wood I have been posting since around the time the PCGS wood boxes were issued. I love coins, have been involved in various areas of conservation for 18 years or so and know from related experience that wood can cause "toning" on metal - I think it will be shown to be a matter of how much - not if. Slabs are not hermetically sealed and will be exposed to the outgassing or various organic acids and other harmful fumes from the wood itself, the adhesives used in construction and even the fabric can be harmful - especially if in an uncontrolled or concentrated environment such as a deposit box. How well the newer slabs will hold out against the incursion of acidic fumes is unknown, but that they are not airtight is known. Wood is, in short, not the best choice. The display cases made by member SOLID are great IMHO because they are open displays - and they do suggest you do not store the wooden part in a safe or deposit box - just the aluminum tray (anodized aluminum is the material of choice for long term storage). At least 1 person concerned about this who contacted PCGS has already been offered a refund for his PCGS wooden boxes as "there will be no short term answer", and I heard from Mr. Hall that accelerated testing would take a month or two and we will be made aware of the results - unfortunately it seems they were not subjected to testing pior to marketing. There are also a few questions in the Q+A about this topic from myself and another. Several people have made excellent posts - Frattlaw showed with pics what I was writing about - slabs do not provide complete protection in the presence of acetic acid - which is found in wood - especially oak which the PCGS boxes seem to made out of. Oak emits up to 5% of its weight in acetic acid. MrSpud has written excellent posts about the chemical aspects of toning as well as raising awreness of the book Coin Chemistry by W. White. As I said in an earlier post - even if storage in wood is said to be 90% safe with 90% certainty, why risk a collection that has taken time, effort and money to assemble? Because they are pretty is not enough reason for me. And, no one has yet posted any BENEFITS at all of storage coins in wood to my knowledge.
Best,
Billy
CARING FOR YOUR METAL OBJECTS
The American Institute for Conservation of Historic & Artistic Works
Prepared by Julie A. Reilly with assistance from David Harvey and Julie Lauffenburger, 2001.
"The characteristic tarnish on silver is black silver sulfide. Acidic gasses from wooden cabinets and cases can also cause metal corrosion. Vapors produced by plywood and other products that off-gas formaldehyde cause lead alloys and other metals to corrode, forming wispy white crystals often confused with mold growth. Keeping metal objects in a clean, dry, safe environment can prevent deterioration from environmental sources."
"Metals, in general, should be stored with inert storage materials. For example, metal cabinets and shelving should be used rather than wood cabinets and shelving. As discussed earlier, many woods and wood products, like plywood, emit acids and other gasses that cause metals to corrode. Acidic newsprint and cardboard boxes should be avoided. Acid-free, lignin-free wrapping paper and boxes are better. Clean, soft cotton cloth can also be used."
and:
Link to Data - if this doesnt convice you there is potential for harm from wood boxes nothing will
"Original" Wood Post (sent to Mr. Hall Aug 5th, responded Sept. 14th....just 3 days after my ORIGINAL Poll (below) closed where 78.79% voted "wood has the potential to harm coins")
Original PCGS Wood Poll Thread (more data)
Link To Another Wood Thread
Russ is correct. There is a green label slab, aside from the "rattler" model, that won't fit into the Wooden box. It's too thick. Fits nicely in the blue box....
how's this: there's always the outside possibility of a chance that they'll tone "monster rainbow" right there in their pcgs holders in their pgcs wood box
and then you can list them and maybe even sell them for one bazillion percent profit!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>And, no one has yet posted any BENEFITS at all of storage coins in wood to my knowledge.
how's this: there's always the outside possibility of a chance that they'll tone "monster rainbow" right there in their pcgs holders in their pgcs wood box
and then you can list them and maybe even sell them for one bazillion percent profit!
Hi there,
well, I admit, yours is a more beneficial suggestion that I had expected considering the nature of the request. And I am glad you agree there is at least the potential for harm, as so many other museum conservators and advanced collectors are already aware. As for the slabs - we know they are not "airtight" - the testing now being done will determine WHEN (IMHO there is no longer reasonable room for "if") coins will tone in PCGS slabs put in wooden boxes stored in safes. It is simply a statement of fact that wood will tone/corrode metal over time - it is the slabs that are adding the "unknown" element, as well as variables in storage (low RH deposit box as opposed to the more expensive "better" higher RH box etc.).
Thanks for the thoughtful, useful and informative input - so different than the norm in here
Best,
Billy
is anyone aware of any benefits to storing coins in wood that Baley missed? (this is a serious question - anyone ever hear of any?)
Best,
Billy
<< <i>Ummm...Ok. If these wood boxes become really fashionable and popular then, in the future, my coins I am going to store in tarnish proof time capsules will become really valuable?
Funny MrSpud!
Whats the matter - pretty is not good enough for you? Coin values will be affected only after you pay someone to tell you it is a genuine unaltered wood box, and the box itself was slabbed in July 2004 in limited edition simulated rosewood "Presidio Storage Box Storage Slabs", signed by Jessica Simpson and then registered as well - and that "sort-of-cherrywoodlike" finish is unwaxed, unpolished and not AT in any way at all..I'd go and call it an oak box as it seems to be from what others have posted - but then again someone wrote PCGS about the type of wood and received no answer
Perhaps they will discover that too in the accelerated tests?
Best,
Billy
PS - yes, I am poking some fun up there
<< <i>And, no one has yet posted any BENEFITS at all of storage coins in wood to my knowledge.
how's this: there's always the outside possibility of a chance that they'll tone "monster rainbow" right there in their pcgs holders in their pgcs wood box
and then you can list them and maybe even sell them for one bazillion percent profit!
Hi there,
well, I admit, yours is a more beneficial suggestion that I had expected considering the nature of the request. And I am glad you agree there is at least the potential for harm, as so many other museum conservators and advanced collectors are already aware. As for the slabs - we know they are not "airtight" - the testing now being done will determine WHEN (IMHO there is no longer reasonable room for "if") coins will tone in PCGS slabs put in wooden boxes stored in safes. It is simply a statement of fact that wood will tone/corrode metal over time - it is the slabs that are adding the "unknown" element, as well as variables in storage (low RH deposit box as opposed to the more expensive "better" higher RH box etc.).
Thanks for the thoughtful, useful and informative input - so different than the norm in here
Best,
Billy
Baley,
I was quite serious. Are you aware of ANY benefits of storing coins in acidic hygroscopic wood? Can you point me to something to read about how safe it is, and why? I have tried to supply accurate and relevant data to support my concerns - it would be helpful if you could show me why you disbelieve so many papers and so much data from established museums and conservators who are so well aquainted with the fact of wood outgassing and corroding/toning metal? How do you discount the potential that is established - my threads and the link in them, MrSpuds swesome threads, Frattlaws experiment..Give me a link and I will read it
Best to you,
Billy
<< <i>Hey Russ...don't you think a case of Slab Caddies would be better???
Russ is coming out with a new line, keeping step with PCGS.....
"Slab Woodies"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
some already pay premiums for Tab Toning - with all the AT experiments and all maybe we should get ready for "Slab Toning"
after all, both "patterns" would be caused by storage...
Best,
Billy
PS - anyone here know how PVC flips were originally received/or how the data that they were harmful was originally recieved? I know it is a reversed situation as that problem was usually (?) discovered after the fact. Those of us who believe wood has the potential for harming coins are trying to prevent just that sort of thing for the sake of everyones coins - despite the little not-really-discouraging-but-more-time-wasting nasty posts here and there from "negative" people who usually don't try and back up their claims. Any help is appreciated re the PVC flips!