Part CMXVI: How to buy a $12,950.15 coin, write a fancy description, sell it for $225,362.88
dorkkarl
Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
it's not really a mystery.
i stumble upon a coin in an acg holder in a dealer's case. i think the seller's priced of $12,950.15 is much too cheap
(GASP! a difference of opinion in the value of the coin GASP!).
i buy the coin for $12,950.15
i crack the coin out. i put in my own holder. i write a fancy description.
i put a sticker on the holder that says $225,362.88.
that's all there is to it. this is what it all boils down to. i didn't hold a gun to anyone's head. i didn't skulk through the night. i didn't steal a grandmother's pudding cake. i didn't rob a baby of his lollipop. i didn't rape anybody, and probably no kittens died as a result of my actions. it's doubtful that any foreign governments were toppled either. in fact, i can't think of a single federal, state or municiapal law or code of ethics that was violated by my actions, & the league of nations is highly unlikely to even notice my actions.
folks, there's really nothing all that shocking going on here.
all that gibberish in those "other" threads, it's much ado about NOTHING.
when the day comes that you may no longer disagree w/ others about how a coin grades, looks, smells, tastes, what it's value is, etc, that's the same day that you might as well fall on your swords, becuase life w/out the right to have AND STATE your own opinion, LIFE ITSELF is just simply NOT worth living.
& i just don't care what pcgs or ngc or the president of guadalupe thinks of my opinion, because in this country, the U S of A, i have a right to my opinion.
you'd damned well better respect that right.
K S
i stumble upon a coin in an acg holder in a dealer's case. i think the seller's priced of $12,950.15 is much too cheap
(GASP! a difference of opinion in the value of the coin GASP!).
i buy the coin for $12,950.15
i crack the coin out. i put in my own holder. i write a fancy description.
i put a sticker on the holder that says $225,362.88.
that's all there is to it. this is what it all boils down to. i didn't hold a gun to anyone's head. i didn't skulk through the night. i didn't steal a grandmother's pudding cake. i didn't rob a baby of his lollipop. i didn't rape anybody, and probably no kittens died as a result of my actions. it's doubtful that any foreign governments were toppled either. in fact, i can't think of a single federal, state or municiapal law or code of ethics that was violated by my actions, & the league of nations is highly unlikely to even notice my actions.
folks, there's really nothing all that shocking going on here.
all that gibberish in those "other" threads, it's much ado about NOTHING.
when the day comes that you may no longer disagree w/ others about how a coin grades, looks, smells, tastes, what it's value is, etc, that's the same day that you might as well fall on your swords, becuase life w/out the right to have AND STATE your own opinion, LIFE ITSELF is just simply NOT worth living.
& i just don't care what pcgs or ngc or the president of guadalupe thinks of my opinion, because in this country, the U S of A, i have a right to my opinion.
you'd damned well better respect that right.
K S
0
Comments
<< <i>Maybe you should have a talk to the Attorney General before posting .....they can tell you all about Enterprise Corruption, Grand Larceny in the Second Degree, and Fraud in the Sale of Securities, which carry a maximum term of 8 1/3-25 years in prison >>
are they also going to tell me that i may not price my wares however i wish?
K S
however I am responding to your comment....
in fact, i can't think of a single federal, state or municiapal law or code of ethics that was violated by my actions, & the league of nations is highly unlikely to even notice my actions.
K S
edited because I don'twant this to turn into a flame thread.
Sorry Jon!
on the $7 s&h that was an input error was supposed to be $5 in fact we reduced the price to the buyer on the shipping of the two slabs from $12 to $10...... and it costs me at least $5 to ship each package
PS: I am sure the price was ok, since I start the auctions at only 1c and yes I have sold several items to people for only 1 cent.....
Why? First class w/delivery confirmation for 2 slabs in a small padded envelope is CONSISTENLY less than $2
Dont forget I buy supplies as well....bubble wrap, tape, business cards, labels, boxes, padded envelopes, etc.....oh how about gas at over $2 gal to drive to the post office....and the cost of the auto to get it there........and the time it takes to drive to the post office and stand in line......Shipping is NOT POSTAGE....
you take it to georgia, clean it up, repaint, roll the odometer, sell as 'mint', or 'only driven by old lady to go to church on sunday'.
is this an issue?
isn't that why there is full disclosure laws for autos?
<< <i>you pick up a car in florida, hurricane totalled.
you take it to georgia, clean it up, repaint, roll the odometer, sell as 'mint', or 'only driven by old lady to go to church on sunday'. >>
that is illegal. you are selling something damaged & repaired, which is not a question of OPINION.
whether a coin's toning is attractive enough to merit a $7300 premium is a matter of OPINION.
it DOES NOT MATTER whether the toning occured in 1885, 1973 or 2 days ago. what matters is whether somebody's opinion is that they LIKE IT.
K S
<< <i>it DOES NOT MATTER whether the toning occured in 1885, 1973 or 2 days ago. what matters is whether somebody's opinion is that they LIKE IT. >>
BINGO!
this is the answer to all the fuss over the last few days. period!
I agree with this completely. I also agree that omitting prior OPINIONS about a coin in an auction description isn't illegal. Whether or not it is bad business practice is for each seller to decide.
I do think, however, that a danger lurks in this scenario. It DOES MATTER if less knowledgable collectors (regardless of how wealthy they are) get permanently buried in coins because someone with brilliant marketing prowess was able to sell a coin for an amount that is far greater than the its fair market value. Collectors getting permanently buried and finding out later they are buried in a coin, is detrimental to the entire hobby and should not be an aspirational goal of any reputable dealer IMO.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
The coins we were discussing yesterday, both had very recent auction results which established their 'fair market value' to a reasonable degree. Dorkkarl's hypothetical did not have this additional fact, so to that extent his hypo is distinguishable.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>If a seller can price his wares however he wishes, then why was Sam Thompson banned from ebay for fraud?? >>
Because as a privately-owned venue, eBay has the right to set the rules upon which transactions can be conducted, and all buyers and sellers must agree to them in order to have an eBay ID and participate in it.
He violated the rules he agreed to, so he's banned. "Illegal" and "against eBay rules" are not one and the same. It wasn't "fraud" in the legal sense, IMO, but it was in the moral sense.
The gist of the gibberish in those "other threads" wasn't about legality or the mechanics of how it is done. It was about ethics. If you have none you should at least consider the consequences of not pretending that you do.
put it up for sale at, say $10,000.00.
And it is even more wrong to buy a coin at $12,000.00 and later put it up for sale at $225,000.00.
So then if I buy a coin at, say $100,000.00 and later go to sell it at say, $1,250,000.00 your all going to take me
out back and lynch me?
Sure a seller can set his price but also a High Profile Seller should have some responsibility toward the Hobby and the participants within the Hobby. The Little Old ladies that are just trying to buy something for their grandson or granddaughter well.....lets just shaft them.
Ken
If someone buy's a $225,362.88 coin and they don't know what they are doing, I would think they deserve what they get!!!
<< <i>It DOES MATTER if less knowledgable collectors (regardless of how wealthy they are) get permanently buried in coins because someone with brilliant marketing prowess was able to sell a coin for an amount that is far greater than the its fair market value. >>
you've worded yourself into a corner though. the fair market value is whatever someone is willing to pay for something of their own free will!!! that's the def'n of "fair market value"!!!
i have seen no evidence that anaconda is forcing anyone to buy this coin.
oh, & offering something to the market at a humongous leap in value is NOT UNETHICAL.
if i buy a roll of 1972 pennies for 3 bucks, find a ddo, & sell it for $700, kudos to me.
<< <i>As your $12,950 coin becomes recognized by others who saw it in the dealer's case the story of your $212,000 markup spreads around the business like a good dirty joke. >>
that's a business decision, not an ethical question.
<< <i>Don't you think that in the spirt of fair play all knowledge about a coin should be disclosed when it is sold. >>
how would this be possible? it is absurd to think that ANY dealer could possibly disclose the entire history, or probably even the recent history of any typical coin. that's why God gave you "reason". the ability to make decisions for yourself.
<< <i>The Little Old ladies that are just trying to buy something for their grandson or granddaughter well.....lets just shaft them >>
little old ladies are not spending $225,362.88, $7500, or even probably 50 bucks on coins for their grand-toddlers.
when i browse ebay & stumble across a dollar that someone has a price of $7500 on, of my own free will, i have only 2 reasonable choices. i may either 1. bid on the coin 2. pass.
i see nothing in anaconda's listing that leads me to believe i will be forced to make a choice against my own free will.
THAT is how the FREE MARKET WORKS.
K S
<< <i>you've worded yourself into a corner though. the fair market value is whatever someone is willing to pay for something of their own free will!!! that's the def'n of "fair market value"!!! >>
I'd agree if the word "someone" would be replaced by "a reasonably well-informed buyer."
K S
So the "fair market value" of the NCM 1995-w Proof Silver Eagle is $200-$300? Or is it that the buyers weren't getting what they were led to believe they were buying? If your statement is true, then there are no scams on Ebay - or in the world.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
I disagree with this comment entirely. It was in anticipation of this sort of comment that I immediately posted my defination of FMV. FMV IS NOT whatever someone is willing to pay for something of their own free will. That is MARKET value. Fair market value includes the concept of FAIRNESS.
Tons of people pay way to much for stuff on their own free will due to the material omission or representation of facts. Just because nobody has a 'gun to their head' and they do it on their own free will doesn't make the price they pay 'fair market value'. Fairness requires either an equal balance of information, or the exchange of material facts that affect the value of the product.
As to whether I've 'worded myself into a corner', I think your observations in that regard are both premature and excessively optimistic.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Probably 1000s upon 1000s of times but yet no one seems to have a problem with that. You slap a different label on it and it's somehow OK? Puleeeze. It is the SAME coin....even if you ignore the fact the coin was probably played with to make it look nicer.
Once again, I agree with Karl. This is a NON issue. This stuff happens ALL OF THE TIME.....I'm sorry but if you do NOT know what you are doing in the coin market you simply have NO business buying coins. Period.
jom
<< <i>OK...how many times has a dealer cracked open a slab with a grade of AU58, sent it into PCGS and it came back MS62 for 1000s of dollars difference? What about 64 to 65? What about non-FBL to FBL? And then did NOT disclose to the buyer this fact? And even to "newbie" buyers?
Probably 1000s upon 1000s of times but yet no one seems to have a problem with that. You slap a different label on it and it's somehow OK? Puleeeze. It is the SAME coin....even if you ignore the fact the coin was probably played with to make it look nicer.
Once again, I agree with Karl. This is a NON issue. This stuff happens ALL OF THE TIME.....I'm sorry but if you do NOT know what you are doing in the coin market you simply have NO business buying coins. Period.
jom >>
The issue I have with this comment is that it seems it is precisely the people who 'do not know what you are doing' who are the target buyers for this type of material. If knowledge were a commodity, and we all had an equal amount of it, the concept of 'fair dealing' would be unecessary. Since equal knowledge is not a commodity and is not obtainagle across the board between buyers and sellers, we will ALWAYS have a component of 'fair dealing' imposed on market place tansactions. The question becomes, how much 'fair dealing' will be demand (as collectors) or tolerate (as dealers).
The examples you mention about crack outs and upgrades, are proof that we don't demand or expect 100% 'fair dealing' but we do expect some. It becomes a questin of where to draw the line and it is a subject worthy of reflection.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>the fair market value is whatever someone is willing to pay for something of their own free will!!! that's the def'n of "fair market value"!!!
I disagree with this comment entirely. It was in anticipation of this sort of comment that I immediately posted my defination of FMV. FMV IS NOT whatever someone is willing to pay for something of their own free will. That is MARKET value. Fair market value includes the concept of FAIRNESS. >>
"fair" is achieved by not browbeating, not forcing, not threatening, not manufacturing bogus facts, etc etc. if what is stated is factual, then it is fair.
there are 2 possiblities:
1--- everything anaconda states was factually true. note that i didn't state it was EVERYTHING that was true, just that what was posted was true.
there is nothing that forces me to accept anaconda's stated facts as the full extent of the facts. i am free to investigate the situation to my heart's content.
2--- not everything anaconda stated was factually true. if this is the case, & i have yet to see anyone prove that any statement in the ebay listings is factually non-true, but if this is were case, then the listing is fraudulent.
all you need to do is prove to me that any statement in the listing is factually non-true & knowingly stated as such.
"fair" DOES NOT require that "ALL" information be included. if that were a requirement, it would be demonstrably impossible, & logically absurd. it's like claiming that a certain silver dollar was the 1st coin struck by the us mint. you would have to back up such a claim by documenting every moment in the history of the coin.
... or you can just choose not to believe the hype.
<< <i>Tons of people pay way to much for stuff on their own free will due to the material omission or representation of facts. Just because nobody has a 'gun to their head' and they do it on their own free will doesn't make the price they pay 'fair market value'. >>
totally disagree. tons of people pay way too much for their brand new cars. but as long as they are willing to do so, it is fair.
<< <i>Fairness requires either an equal balance of information, or the exchange of material facts that affect the value of the product. >>
again, i disagree. it requires an equal OPPORTUNITY to access the balance of information, but the seller is not obliged to do so.
YOU are a citizen of the united states, & have the access & opportunity to research anything to you heart's content. but i am under no obligation to do your work for you when i offer to sell you something.
K S