If a coin was in a 64 holder and it got cracked out and put into a 65 holder, should that fact be di

ANACONDA

If a coin was in a 64 holder and it got cracked out and put into a 65 holder, should that fact be disclosed?

Doesn't it seem a little dishonest not to reveal that fact?

If you think it is immaterial, the spreads on some coins is phenomenal.

For example, an 1801 eagle in MS 64 is bid at $43,000 and one in MS 65 is bid at $165,000.

(By the way, I sold a really, really, cherry 64 recently. I bet if you sent it in a few times it would come back a 65.)

clw54

<< <i>If a coin was in a 64 holder and it got cracked out and put into a 65 holder, should that fact be disclosed? >>


If would be nice, but it's not wrong to not do so. Why? Because 64 isn't a problem with a coin. A coin can be MS64 and problem free.

On the other hand, things like a cleaning or AT that was on a holder should be disclosed. Heck, it should be either left in the holder that identified the problem, or resubmitted to one of the top three if the person disagrees with the stated problem.

Coin Finder

Fishing, I really hate fishing. Anyway, I will start this line of questioning with a question.

If a coin is graded 65 isn't it a 65? That is what it says right? It has to be if that is what it says. It is documneted that way.

Therefore if it says 65 and if someone told me it WAS a 64, I would say they are wrong. Is not that the correct response? After all I have documentation. If you have documentation that says it is a 64 then it is wrong. It is a forgery!!!!

Clearly the holder says 65 now.

Tbig

MFH

If you're selling a 65 holdered coin, the label says "MS 65" --- it doesn't say "MS 65 - Low End For Grade".

Many dealers make a living from cherry picking MS 64 coins that have cross over potential. Those who wish to own this coin as an MS 65, should buy the coin and not the holder. If the MS 65 meets YOUR criteria of a MS 65, then great. If you think the coin is really a choice MS 64 in a 65 holder, then pass.

Noone is twisting anyone's arm here to buy, or not buy, coins in any variety of TPG holdered coins.

If a coin is sent in for a cross over regrade and it comes back one point lower, I wouldn't mind hearing from the seller that it originally was in a "Y" TPG MS 65 holder, but the existing holder from "X" TPG says its only a MS 64.

greghansen

I say again...its not the disclosure or failure to disclose. It is the effort to prevent discussion of the coins history and/or the attempt to silence a forum member discussing the coins history that is problematic. If there was no attempt by Anaconda or TBT to prevent discussion of these issues, great! If there was an effort to silence that discussion, what is the justification for that?

Tonekiller

<< <i>I say again...its not the disclosure or failure to disclose. It is the effort to prevent discussion of the coins history and/or the attempt to silence a forum member discussing the coins history that is problematic. If there was no attempt by Anaconda or TBT to prevent discussion of these issues, great! If there was an effort to silence that discussion, what is the justification for that? >>




Braddick edited his thread on his own. No one made him do anything. Why would I want the mob to be silenced?

centmaster

If I bought a coin in a 65 holder and liked the coin as a 65, then my opinion would be that the market would accept it as a 65, and I would probably be right. If the previous owner then told me that it used to be in a 64 holder, it would have no impact on me, as I would think that it was simply undergraded the first time, as would most in the market.

ar18

so you agree it would make 65 with a little work, that seems like alot of money why didn't you do it, seems like a smart business decision, so If you sold your 65 would you say it took me 12 times to get it into a 65 holder, I think not.

lclugza

Yes, I think the fact should be disclosed. If it used to be 64 then it's likely overgraded as a 65. (it seems dealers just love overgraded coins.) Of course you'll see a dealer saying "this MS65 is overgraded, it USED to be an MS64" the day Hell freezes over.

dizzlecc

It doesn't matter the holder. If a buyer likes the coin and is willing to pay the sellers price, the deal is done.

The same can be said for vams or errors. How do you determine the premium for a vam. Easy, what someone will pay for it. The same is true for toned coins or coins that are tweeners grade wise.

Fairlaneman

If the buyer is just a plastic collector then maybe you should disclose that the coin was in a 64 holder. If the buyer is a coin buyer then who gives a hoot what the slab says.

BTW what is the point of this thread ? Oh to let us know you sold a Really Really nice 64.

Ken

ar18

another anaconda post

dorkkarl

If a coin was in a 64 holder and it got cracked out and put into a 65 holder, should that fact be disclosed? >>

the answer is a plain & simple NO.

it's none of my business.

K S

RBinTex

The simple answer is no to the 1st question & yes to the second question. BUT, if one wanted to separate themselves from the VAST majority of dealers AND wanted to develop a reputation as the most honest and forthcoming dealer on the planet (and wouldn't THAT reputation be worth its weight in gold at the end of the day) then the answer is a resounding YES.

dorkkarl

that would not be a dealer, that would be an idiot.

what about the grade before that? & the grade before that? & the grade before that, & before that, & before that?

where would the lunacy end?

it's pathetic that the number on the plastic means SOOOOO much today.

K S

rottnrog

<< <i>that would not be a dealer, that would be an idiot.

what about the grade before that? & the grade before that? & the grade before that, & before that, & before that?

where would the lunacy end?

it's pathetic that the number on the plastic means SOOOOO much today.

K S >>

RBinTex

"that would not be a dealer, that would be an idiot."

So you're saying that one would be an idiot to simply disclose ALL (& ONLY) one knew of a particular coin they were selling? Take it a step further. What if someone asked you a question about the coin that you KNEW the answer to but you then said you didn't know to help your effort to sell it. I'd rather be an idiot then dishonest - but hey, THAT'S JUST ME.

People like that go to jail in the real estate (& other) fields. Why so desparately trying to cling to the ability to NOT fully disclose in the coin industry?

Steve27

"If a coin was in a 64 holder and it got cracked out and put into a 65 holder, should that fact be disclosed?"

No, but it's common to see that type of info for a coin cracked out of a 65 holder which regrades as a 64.

zzzz

The answer to this question is: Who cares ...

Anaconda your credibility IMHO is shot ...
IMHO your no better than some of the other scamers out there.
IMHO the damage you did to "yourself" is now not reversable.

I hope the damage done to your reputation, character and respect was worth fighting over a $72 coin. All because of GREED.

Now anytime I see an auction of yours I will, and probably many more people, wonder if the coin is AT or some other problem coin that was broken out of a major third party grading service slab?

INMHO the mighty Anaconda has fallen and is no more than any other snake in the grass.

mhammerman

I know this is a very touchy subject and there are some raw nerves but let me offer a collector's perspective on this topic since my interest is in coin collecting as opposed to turning coins for my livelihood. Firstly, if it weren't for coin dealers, we wouldn't have much access to coins other than from circulation or from other collectors but if it wasn't for collectors, there would not be a need for dealers except as investment advisors for people with toooo much money. So, the current relationship between dealers and collectors is a symbiotic one. This isn't a dealer's v.s. collector's diatribe but more a view from my vantage point, an active collector with enough where-with-all to enjoy my hobby as long as I keep a handle on it all.

Collectors of valuable coins have to keep an eye on the cost of collecting in that no one wants to be into a $600 coin for $5K. In coin collecting as well as realestate or any type of investing the old saw holds true..."a fool and his money are soon parted." Or in more respectable circles..."caveat emptor" (let the purchaser beware). It happens every day where someone is parted from their money through what ever means...three card monte, shares in a new internet service company, a real estate investment club, the examples are in every newspaper, every day.

Now to the chase! If there is a nice ms 63 coin that gets submitted multiple times to different tpg's until it comes back as a 64, a collector will look at it and still call it a 63 maybe a 63+ but regardless what the book value of a true 64 is, it will still be worth 63 money to a collector. A dealer looks at a 63 coin that crossed to a 64 and is now worth some multiple of that 63 coin and the dealer believes he has a major score (in his mind) but to a collector...he won't offer anywhere near 64 money for that coin, it simply will not happen. You can call it a 64 all day and hawk the coin, and show the collector the tpg slab and the designations but it is still a 63 coin relative to what's on the market. The result is that there are a bunch of sub-grade coins on the market right now for full grade prices and they sit in the auction houses with 64 reserves. Check out the Heritage auctions and look what doesn't sell, it's all the high grade, high dollar coins that don't really make the grade. High grade coins for high grade money will sell like hot cakes every time though because collectors understand value very well. No collector will go for the bait of a marginal coin in an expensive holder. They sit in the shops on the internet and in the auction houses and won't move. Any good collector must be frustrated by looking at a nice 63 coin that has been put in a 64 holder that's worth 63maybe+ money but certainly not 64 money and the collector won't bite even if he wants/needs the coin because, it is not a good value. Every serious collector has had a bout with "buyers remorse" and it is not a lesson that one needs to repeat. No one wants to be in a $600 coin for $5k.

So then the second wave comes. Headlines!!! "The coin market is crashing because the 64 morgans aren't moving, no one is buying ms 64 morgans so sell, sell, sell." And then there is the corresponding wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth...all because of the pressure to upgrade marginal coins thinking it will lead to great profits for the owner. The same holds true for the collector that resubmits a 63 multiple times till it comes back as a 64 and then the collector takes it to the dealer. Well, the dealers tells the collector that he will offer 63 wholesale money for that coin then the collector and dealer have a bad experience with each other. You can see that experience played out in the threads in this forum from time to time. Questionable upgrading actually weakens the market and reduces the general vaule of a series and collectors respond by running like hel. It may lead to great profits in an audience of fools but it will not lead to any profits from a collector base. If the market is indeed driven by collectors and the collector won't pay that money because it's still a 63 coin in a 64 holder then the market isn't crashing...it's just that a smart collector will not pay 64 money for a 63 coin nor will a dealer. That collector will go to a different series, go fishing, but he/she will keep their money in their pocket because the pain of buyers remorse is a bitc-. The dealer will not buy a 63 coin for 64 money and the story goes around and around. So the logic would be that the only place to sell marginal coins is to fools...who want's to make a living like that or worse yet...who wants to be that fool? CAVEAT EMPTOR!

So everytime I see a thread that shows how a 63 finally crossed to a 64 after 6 submissions to tpg's or everytime I see how someone flipped a 63 to a 65 and sold it or cleaned a 63 and got a 65 out of it...I feel the series weakening and I see the value of fools. I see the coins sitting right there but I can't buy them because they can't hold the value and I certainly don't want to be in a $600 coin for $5K. So for me, a collector what I see is another series getting my attention so I learn more about a different coin issue and I grow...but I will not pay full 64 money for what I know to be a 63maybe+ coin. It doesn't matter how a 63 coin got into a 64 holder...I will not pay it.

Just my perspective. Enjoy


Mike

Conder101

Then as the the next generation of collectors comes into the market, they are told to look at lots of slabbed coins to learn how to grade. So they look at all of these formerly 63 coins that are now in 64 holders and this generation learns that "This is what a 64 coin looks like.". So what was a 63 eventually becomes the new standard for 64 etc. Standards change and grade creep continues.

JadeRareCoin

So what was a 63 eventually becomes the new standard for 64 etc. Standards change and grade creep continues.

Sadly, you are correct. Eventually the official ANA grading standards will need to be revised. By 2050, it will read something like this:

Mint State
MS-60 Uncirculated
A coin that circulated for a short time. Some of the luster may still be obvserved in the protected areas. Three quarters of the detail will remain.

lclugza

The "third party" grading services ought to go back to VERY STRICT grading. That means back to the stricter grading that existed (or allegedly existed) in the early days of coin "slabbing." That would mean no more "upgrades" (i,e., overgrades), and no more "crackouts" and "crackout artists." Of course dealers and speculators would hate that situation.

Conder101

The problem is the services depend on maintaining the claim that the standards have never changed and that any generation of holder has the same standard of grading. That is one of the reasons they won't say when any paticular coin was slabbed. They do not want to tke the chance of a market development stating that slabs dated before XXXX are better/worse than slabs dated YYYY. All slabs are supposed to be equal. As long as you don't know when a particular slab was produced it is hard to create such a distinction. (My disemination of that information is one of the reasons I am persona non grata at PCGS.)