Why is it OK for a dealer to disclose less info to another dealer?
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
It seems to me that the majority of the folks out there believe that if one dealer sells a coin to another dealer, caveat emptor really is order of the day.
In other words, one dealer doesn't owe another dealer squat.
I'm not insinuating anything and I'm not revealing my opinion about the issue. I'm just saying that that statement seems to be true and I want to know why.
Shouldn't dealers treat each other with the same respect and honor that dealers should show to clients?
In other words, one dealer doesn't owe another dealer squat.
I'm not insinuating anything and I'm not revealing my opinion about the issue. I'm just saying that that statement seems to be true and I want to know why.
Shouldn't dealers treat each other with the same respect and honor that dealers should show to clients?
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Comments
<< <i>Shouldn't dealers treat each other with the same respect and honor that dealers should show to clients? >>
You get an emphatic YES from me.
My OmniCoin Collection
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Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
But to not disclose material facts which no one could otherwise reasonably know or determine -- such as *knowing* this coin was flagged as AT and cracked out -- is over the line whether it's selling to a collector or another dealer.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
My concern with this issue wasn't over the listing or the omission of the prior ANACS AT opinion, it was with the suggestion that overt or implied pressure was brought to bear on a forum member to prevent them from discussing the issue in public. I thought that was very bad form and not to be tolerated.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Michael
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i><*cough, cough, cough*> it's hard to breath <*cough*> and see through the smoke screen. How simplistic of a maneuver. I would have expected more from a seasoned litigator.
Michael >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
When one party is obviously an expert and the other is obviously a novice, the very act of the expert quoting a price (to buy or sell) creates an implied warranty of fairness upon which the novice has a right to rely. IMHO, it is irrelevant if the two parties are dealers or collectors.
Of course, this view doesn't address the large number of cases in which there is not an obvious and substantial disparity of expertise.
My guess is that the law oversimplifies things by presuming that the dealer is an expert and the collector is a novice. I also suspect that there are cases in which the presumptions have been deemed invalid. Adrian, please enlighten us as to the way it REALLY works.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If the person making the pitch implies (but doesn't directly state) in a way that any reasonable person would conclude something that is false, I think that that is defined as "sleazy"
Likewise, and this would pertain more to dealers who actually communicate when making a deal, (as compared to eBay or online sales), it is the responsibility of the buyer to ask any relevant questions which the seller must answer truthfully and to the best of his knowledge. If the self-proclaimed dealer chooses not to ask the correct questions because of ignorance or pride, then it is his/her own fault for any loss.
Saying this, ebay is different than a show or a shop in that every coin has a story on ebay to help the sale. A coin in a case at a show attacts interested buyers on its own merit. On ebay the coin is given "sizzle" which is where ethics come into play. At the coin show, the actual coin is for sale. On the web, or in a catalog, only a representation of the coin is for sale.
<< <i>Shouldn't dealers treat each other with the same respect and honor that dealers should show to clients? >>
in my opinion, the answer is NO.
dealers (not dealers-wannabe's, but DEALERS) are experts. they can form their own opinion about whether or not to purchase something based on his expert experience.
a client is not necessarily an expert, & part of what he is paying a dealer for is the use of his expertise, so there is some value-added that the dealer should warranty.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>Shouldn't dealers treat each other with the same respect and honor that dealers should show to clients? >>
in my opinion, the answer is NO.
dealers (not dealers-wannabe's, but DEALERS) are experts. they can form their own opinion about whether or not to purchase something based on his expert experience.
a client is not necessarily an expert, & part of what he is paying a dealer for is the use of his expertise, so there is some value-added that the dealer should warranty.
K S >>
Karl - I agree!
Interesting point.
<< <i>Where would it stop. What if you tried to sell a coin between dealers and one passed because he thought it may have been cleaned at one point. Do you now have to disclose that to future dealers or retail clients interested in the coin?" >>
Hello collector/dealer, this coin is for sale and has been owned by 53 people within the last 112 years. It has been to PCGS/NGC/ANACS 32 times for grading. It has travelled around the world 3 times in someones luggage. It has been to 3 strip clubs within the lst 40 years (these places sure have changed over the last 40 years).
The history of the coin should not matter. period.
get my point.
on march 3, 1883, it was stored in a civil-war era rifle box.
on feb 18, 1887, it was removed from the rifle box & spent at a general store in tucson where it picked up a rim nick.
on august 3, 1889, it made it's way into a cigar shop where it was rubbed twice from general circulation & reduced in grade to au-58.
at dawn of december 25, 1892, a grandmother gave the coin to her infant granddaughter who immedatiately threw up digested fruitcake on it, imparting artificial tone. 3 minutes later, the tone was partially washed off.
on january 3, 1893, the coin was slid across the counter of a bank in albuquerque where it picked up a scratch & was reduced in grade to au-53
... (37 pages later in 8 point text of blah blah blah baloney)
on april 7, 2003, anacs rendered an opinion that the coin grades xf-40. i think it grades vf-35, & those puke stains should wash out. wanna buy it?
K S
<< <i> such as *knowing* this coin was flagged as AT and cracked out >>
Should they be required to relate the opinion of every person that has seen the coin or do we get to pick and chose the opinions they relate? A grading service opinion is simply that, an opinion. It is not chiseled in stone, a declaration from on high. They have been known to be wrong, and not infrequently. So there is n reson why a grading services opinion needs to be disclosed.
When you buy a coin you should make your own decision on the merits of the coin before purchase. You should not count on the seller of the coin knowing the history or even if he/she is telling you the truth. You are much better off doing the work yourself so you are an informed buyer.
Anaconda may not have used the best judgment in the recent eBay auction in question but it is his right to do whatever he feels is in his best interest and that's the end of it. He has a coin. he gives a sales pitch, and I don't think he is being deceptive, you can buy it or pass. You people on this forum who are on a witch hunt and try to twist things around into something that it isn't should take it easy and think once or twice before you post next time.
jbstevens, are you saying that we should never listen to another word uttered by a dealer, and that we should only buy the coin based on our own knowledge? I just want to be clear about what you are saying.
As I stated in another post, I could care less what the price of the coin was between TBT and Adrian. However, I believe it would enlighten us as to who was trying to pull what on who, or to what degree. I have bought coins at multiples of what the previous owner paid for them. That is not the issue. The price was questioned because there is this dealer to dealer gap, so with both dealers silent, we don't know who was trying to do what to who.
Most things can be broken down into two categories, wise and unwise. Forget ethical, unethical, legal, illegal.....etc., etc. Those things are are relevant and important but if you can say something is wise or unwise you may never have to start getting into the other areas.
First of all, I'm not perfect. And, we don't have to agree about everything with regard to whether it's wise or unwise.
But, in a nutshell, it's all about the golden rule.
Dealers should treat each other like they want to be treated. Collectors should treat dealers like they want to be treated. Dealers should treat collectors like they want to be treated.
I don't try to make a distinction between dealers and collectors. Do I treat people that do a lot of business with me better than strangers? Yes. Will I sell a coin for a good profit? Yes. Will I buy a coin back that I have sold for a good profit? Yes. Do I always enjoy doing that? No but when I post a thread like "Have you ever heard of Anaconda screwing anyone?"....I'm pretty sure that I'm on safe ground.
How many other dealers have had the balls to post a thread like that?
if you don't have expertise to know what's legit & what's not, YOU'RE NOT A DEALER.
K S
<<< Shouldn't dealers treat each other with the same respect and honor that dealers should show to clients? >>>
I would say no, I believe all's fair in transactions between dealers, this is their chosen profession and supposedly field of expertise. Unfortunately, many so-called dealers today are nothing more than "slab brokers" in my opinion, they buy low and sell high, and that's all there is to it, no real knowledge or expertise of numismatics required.
At a big show last year, I saw a small dealer with a raw high grade 1932-D quarter in his case in a 2 X 2 flip with a handwritten note next to the coin, the note read: "this coin was sold to me by dealer XX and is counterfeit, and now he won't take it back". What that note should've said in my opinion is: "I bought a counterfeit 1932-D quarter due to my lack of knowledge, and I deserve to be stuck with it, maybe next time I'll know better".
I think if you're a dealer (eg; professional) and want to venture into dealing with raw coins from time to time, ESPECIALLY toned raw coins, you better damned well know what you're looking at, or be prepared to get stuck with bad coins every so often.
Answer you know what would happen so lets sell it with the Artifical inferance that it's a gem in hidding with vowes of riches if you get it certified.
I will never understand the power of greed.
Just my two cents
Smitty
1. Someone asks you a question in a business transaction answer it willingly and fully.
2. Don't be naive, no matter how honest and candid someone is, its about money so educate yourself before you purchase, don't expect the other party to have your interests at heart.
3. Whether you want to call your business practice wise, unwise, unethical, ethica or just a part of the game, remember this: folks have a long memory and you can do 99 things out of a hundred and mess up one time and they will think you are dishonest, its human nature unfortunately.
4. Dealers, businessmen therefore get graded by their worst transaction, their worst marketing ploy etc. not their best. Ask yourself whether its worth your reputation when you make a business decision.
5. If you are going to sell something, like coins no matter how much you protest that you will do it your way regardless of the above then soon there won't be a business to worry about.
"greed" in & of itself IS NOT a bad thing.
K S
<< <i>It seems to me that the majority of the folks out there believe that if one dealer sells a coin to another dealer, caveat emptor really is order of the day.
In other words, one dealer doesn't owe another dealer squat.
>>
I agree that a different standard may apply to dealer-to-dealer sales, but one should respond honestly to any questions IMO.
<< <i>How many other dealers have had the balls to post a thread like that? >>
I bet Laura does
People in the business of dealing coins are expected to have a higher degree of sophistication then consumers.
Even though it was a dealer-to-dealer transaction, Ananconda still was the client of TBT and as such should have been told more of the story behind the coin (i.e. the truth). But if the seller is required to disclose the entire past of a coin, commerce will come to a halt.
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