Dealers Code of Ethics Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Members Code of Ethics.
To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.
To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.
To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.
To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer's receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier. If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer's receipt of said coin from me. In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder's receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder's receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier. Whether or not an item has been returned within the limited return period, a dealer may be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action for a) the intentional sale of any counterfeit item or any item with an altered date or mintmark; b) the intentional misrepresentation as to the grade of any item; or c) the failure or refusal to provide a refund or replacement for any item referred to in a) or b) preceding, whether or not the sale or misrepresentation was intentional. Anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding, I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein. However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine and he/she has agreed that the coin cannot be returned to me for a refund in the event it is determined to be counterfeit.
To abide by all local, state and federal laws in all numismatic matters and to assist in the prosecution of violators of the law in this respect.
To recognize and respect my own contracts and business dealings and those of fellow members of the Association. To refrain from making unjustified and/or false statements or misrepresentations in my relations with others, and to fully cooperate in the advancement of our hobby and business in my relations with collector and dealer alike.
Any violation of this code will be grounds for expulsion from the American Numismatic Association.
<<To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.>>
How is his $7500 price commensurate with the prevailing rate for a common date Morgan??? How does it also provide a reasonable rate of return??? I know there had to be some markup between the $200 or whatever TBT spent on the coin and the price he sold it to Anaconda for, but I doubt it was so much that $7500 seems like a reasonable markup, according to ANA dealer standards.
<<To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.>>
With his vast experience with toned Morgans and POSSIBLY knowing the history of this coin, how is he furnishing numismatic knowledge to his clientele to the best of his ability when he says that this coin will slab at PCGS or NGC as a 65, when it came out of a NET 60 ANACS slab???
<<To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.>>
If he knows TBT personally, then he MAY HAVE also known how TBT acquired this coin and what the notations on the slab said, which means he MAY HAVE knowingly handled an altered (artificially toned) coin or other spurious numismatic merchandise without labelling it as such.
Edited to change a few statements that may have been interpreted as absolutes to vagueries to prevent the threatening PMs from flooding in.
<<To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.>>
How is his $7500 price commensurate with the prevailing rate for a common date Morgan??? How does it also provide a reasonable rate of return??? I know there had to be some markup between the $200 or whatever TBT spent on the coin and the price he sold it to Anaconda for, but I doubt it was so much that $7500 seems like a reasonable markup, according to ANA dealer standards.
<< <i><<To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.>>
With his vast experience with toned Morgans and POSSIBLY knowing the history of this coin, how is he furnishing numismatic knowledge to his clientele to the best of his ability when he says that this coin will slab at PCGS or NGC as a 65, when it came out of a NET 60 ANACS slab??? >>
Because to the best of his knowlwedge. after examining the coin, he doesn't believe that the coin is artificailly toned and that PCGS or NGC will accept it. The fact that ANACS once slabbed it as AT is immaterial.
<< <i><<To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.>>
If he knows TBT personally, then he MAY HAVE also known how TBT acquired this coin and what the notations on the slab said, which means he MAY HAVE knowingly handled an altered (artificially toned) coin or other spurious numismatic merchandise without labelling it as such. >>
Only if he believes it has been altered. If he believes that it is not AT then he has not knowingly handled altered material.
<< <i><<To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.>>
How is his $7500 price commensurate with the prevailing rate for a common date Morgan??? How does it also provide a reasonable rate of return??? I know there had to be some markup between the $200 or whatever TBT spent on the coin and the price he sold it to Anaconda for, but I doubt it was so much that $7500 seems like a reasonable markup, according to ANA dealer standards. >>
If I cherrypick a $5,000 coin for $100 I should only sell it for $150 as a reasonable rate of return? Or should I insist on paying $4,000 to the dealer who wanted $100 so that I can sell it for $5,000 as a reasonable rate of return? And if I do that, does that mean that the dealer I bought it from needs to track down the guy HE bought it from so that HE wasn't selling it for an unreasnable rate of return? And so on back up the chain.
In general, the coin hobby/industry is a caveat emptor, or "let the buyer beware" market. There are no ethics. However, some dealers belong to the ANA and PNG and are supposedly govererned by a code of ethics.
I don't believe it is unethical to sell a coin above its "sheet" value with the speculation it can upgrade, this happens frequently.
What is unethical, if the dealer is a ANA and/or PNG member, that the seller (if the seller was a collector) of the MS64 received under $1000 for a coin that was sold for $5000.
PNG - to refrain from buying at unreasonable prices from a non-professional customer.
With the thousands of crackouts and upgrades by dealers, how many have split the windfall profit with the collector seller? There are a couple of dealers who do this (I can't remember who, perhaps Northeast?). This is how dealers make their gravy, and collectors get screwed.
Bill
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>What is unethical, if the dealer is a ANA and/or PNG member, that the seller (if the seller was a collector) of the MS64 received under $1000 for a coin that was sold for $5000. >>
And, I witnessed this exact scenario at this year's ANA. Seller (not really even a collector) was offered $500 from Dealer A for a certain coin. He thought he should get $600 (on what basis, I know not), and when he approached Dealer B (very experienced with this particular coin) with his $600 request, Dealer B "fractures his wrist" going for his "roll".
Naive seller walks off with $600, and Dealer B has a coin which he can sell (first shot) to a multitude of other dealers for over $3500.
I'm glad I witnessed this!!! Sometimes it pays to be a fly on the wall......
If I cherrypick a $5,000 coin for $100 I should only sell it for $150 as a reasonable rate of return? Or should I insist on paying $4,000 to the dealer who wanted $100 so that I can sell it for $5,000 as a reasonable rate of return? And if I do that, does that mean that the dealer I bought it from needs to track down the guy HE bought it from so that HE wasn't selling it for an unreasnable rate of return? And so on back up the chain.
Oh my gosh, Condor! You just uttered the quintessential Dorkarl arguement!!!!
<<If I cherrypick a $5,000 coin for $100 I should only sell it for $150 as a reasonable rate of return?>>
It depends where you do the cherrypicking. If a little old lady comes to you with her dead husbands coin collection and you pay her $100 for a $5000 coin and then justify yourself by calling it cherrypicking, then you are a heartless one, indeed. The $5000 price would only be considered a reasonable rate of return if you offered the seller a fair price for the piece if you knew what it was and they didn't. That's what the code of ethics is all about. To prevent mischief like this. A collector or non ANA/PNG dealer isn't bound by this because they don't make the agreement with ANA/PNG. You would be dishonoring your pledge to behave in an ethical manner if you are a member of these organizations and do otherwise.
This proposition sounds like a 3 card monte dealer talking on the streets of New York in 1991.
STEWARTBLAY - I agree that is SOUNDS that way to the majority of the people that don't aggressively play such games on a daily basis. That's why I would only make such a proposition to a crackout artist. I certainly wouldn't offer such a seemingly pricey coin to most collectors, nor would I advertise it to the public on eBay, or anwhere else. As Mr. Anaconda can attest, that is a losing proposition.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The $5000 price would only be considered a reasonable rate of return if you offered the seller a fair price for the piece if you knew what it was and they didn't. That's what the code of ethics is all about. To prevent mischief like this. A collector or non ANA/PNG dealer isn't bound by this because they don't make the agreement with ANA/PNG. You would be dishonoring your pledge to behave in an ethical manner if you are a member of these organizations and do otherwise. >>
So PNG dealer are not allowed to cherrypick other dealers, or is they do they must offer the cherry's at prices well below market price. RIGHT.
And no I would not try to buy a $5,000 coin for $100 from a non-collector or even a novice collector. Dealers however a fair game since they are presenting themselves as professionals and therefor knowledgable.
Comments
Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Members Code of Ethics.
To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.
To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.
To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.
To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer's receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier. If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer's receipt of said coin from me. In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder's receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder's receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier. Whether or not an item has been returned within the limited return period, a dealer may be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action for a) the intentional sale of any counterfeit item or any item with an altered date or mintmark; b) the intentional misrepresentation as to the grade of any item; or c) the failure or refusal to provide a refund or replacement for any item referred to in a) or b) preceding, whether or not the sale or misrepresentation was intentional. Anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding, I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein. However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine and he/she has agreed that the coin cannot be returned to me for a refund in the event it is determined to be counterfeit.
To abide by all local, state and federal laws in all numismatic matters and to assist in the prosecution of violators of the law in this respect.
To recognize and respect my own contracts and business dealings and those of fellow members of the Association. To refrain from making unjustified and/or false statements or misrepresentations in my relations with others, and to fully cooperate in the advancement of our hobby and business in my relations with collector and dealer alike.
Any violation of this code will be grounds for expulsion from the American Numismatic Association.
<<To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.>>
How is his $7500 price commensurate with the prevailing rate for a common date Morgan??? How does it also provide a reasonable rate of return??? I know there had to be some markup between the $200 or whatever TBT spent on the coin and the price he sold it to Anaconda for, but I doubt it was so much that $7500 seems like a reasonable markup, according to ANA dealer standards.
<<To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.>>
With his vast experience with toned Morgans and POSSIBLY knowing the history of this coin, how is he furnishing numismatic knowledge to his clientele to the best of his ability when he says that this coin will slab at PCGS or NGC as a 65, when it came out of a NET 60 ANACS slab???
<<To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.>>
If he knows TBT personally, then he MAY HAVE also known how TBT acquired this coin and what the notations on the slab said, which means he MAY HAVE knowingly handled an altered (artificially toned) coin or other spurious numismatic merchandise without labelling it as such.
Edited to change a few statements that may have been interpreted as absolutes to vagueries to prevent the threatening PMs from flooding in.
How is his $7500 price commensurate with the prevailing rate for a common date Morgan??? How does it also provide a reasonable rate of return??? I know there had to be some markup between the $200 or whatever TBT spent on the coin and the price he sold it to Anaconda for, but I doubt it was so much that $7500 seems like a reasonable markup, according to ANA dealer standards.
<< <i><<To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.>>
With his vast experience with toned Morgans and POSSIBLY knowing the history of this coin, how is he furnishing numismatic knowledge to his clientele to the best of his ability when he says that this coin will slab at PCGS or NGC as a 65, when it came out of a NET 60 ANACS slab??? >>
Because to the best of his knowlwedge. after examining the coin, he doesn't believe that the coin is artificailly toned and that PCGS or NGC will accept it. The fact that ANACS once slabbed it as AT is immaterial.
<< <i><<To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.>>
If he knows TBT personally, then he MAY HAVE also known how TBT acquired this coin and what the notations on the slab said, which means he MAY HAVE knowingly handled an altered (artificially toned) coin or other spurious numismatic merchandise without labelling it as such. >>
Only if he believes it has been altered. If he believes that it is not AT then he has not knowingly handled altered material.
<< <i><<To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.>>
How is his $7500 price commensurate with the prevailing rate for a common date Morgan??? How does it also provide a reasonable rate of return??? I know there had to be some markup between the $200 or whatever TBT spent on the coin and the price he sold it to Anaconda for, but I doubt it was so much that $7500 seems like a reasonable markup, according to ANA dealer standards. >>
If I cherrypick a $5,000 coin for $100 I should only sell it for $150 as a reasonable rate of return? Or should I insist on paying $4,000 to the dealer who wanted $100 so that I can sell it for $5,000 as a reasonable rate of return? And if I do that, does that mean that the dealer I bought it from needs to track down the guy HE bought it from so that HE wasn't selling it for an unreasnable rate of return? And so on back up the chain.
I don't believe it is unethical to sell a coin above its "sheet" value with the speculation it can upgrade, this happens frequently.
What is unethical, if the dealer is a ANA and/or PNG member, that the seller (if the seller was a collector) of the MS64 received under $1000 for a coin that was sold for $5000.
PNG - to refrain from buying at unreasonable prices from a non-professional customer.
With the thousands of crackouts and upgrades by dealers, how many have split the windfall profit with the collector seller? There are a couple of dealers who do this (I can't remember who, perhaps Northeast?). This is how dealers make their gravy, and collectors get screwed.
Bill
<< <i>What is unethical, if the dealer is a ANA and/or PNG member, that the seller (if the seller was a collector) of the MS64 received under $1000 for a coin that was sold for $5000. >>
And, I witnessed this exact scenario at this year's ANA. Seller (not really even a collector) was offered $500 from Dealer A for a certain coin. He thought he should get $600 (on what basis, I know not), and when he approached Dealer B (very experienced with this particular coin) with his $600 request, Dealer B "fractures his wrist" going for his "roll".
Naive seller walks off with $600, and Dealer B has a coin which he can sell (first shot) to a multitude of other dealers for over $3500.
I'm glad I witnessed this!!! Sometimes it pays to be a fly on the wall......
If I cherrypick a $5,000 coin for $100 I should only sell it for $150 as a reasonable rate of return? Or should I insist on paying $4,000 to the dealer who wanted $100 so that I can sell it for $5,000 as a reasonable rate of return? And if I do that, does that mean that the dealer I bought it from needs to track down the guy HE bought it from so that HE wasn't selling it for an unreasnable rate of return? And so on back up the chain.
Oh my gosh, Condor! You just uttered the quintessential Dorkarl arguement!!!!
It depends where you do the cherrypicking. If a little old lady comes to you with her dead husbands coin collection and you pay her $100 for a $5000 coin and then justify yourself by calling it cherrypicking, then you are a heartless one, indeed. The $5000 price would only be considered a reasonable rate of return if you offered the seller a fair price for the piece if you knew what it was and they didn't. That's what the code of ethics is all about. To prevent mischief like this. A collector or non ANA/PNG dealer isn't bound by this because they don't make the agreement with ANA/PNG. You would be dishonoring your pledge to behave in an ethical manner if you are a member of these organizations and do otherwise.
STEWARTBLAY - I agree that is SOUNDS that way to the majority of the people that don't aggressively play such games on a daily basis. That's why I would only make such a proposition to a crackout artist. I certainly wouldn't offer such a seemingly pricey coin to most collectors, nor would I advertise it to the public on eBay, or anwhere else. As Mr. Anaconda can attest, that is a losing proposition.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The $5000 price would only be considered a reasonable rate of return if you offered the seller a fair price for the piece if you knew what it was and they didn't. That's what the code of ethics is all about. To prevent mischief like this. A collector or non ANA/PNG dealer isn't bound by this because they don't make the agreement with ANA/PNG. You would be dishonoring your pledge to behave in an ethical manner if you are a member of these organizations and do otherwise. >>
So PNG dealer are not allowed to cherrypick other dealers, or is they do they must offer the cherry's at prices well below market price. RIGHT.
And no I would not try to buy a $5,000 coin for $100 from a non-collector or even a novice collector. Dealers however a fair game since they are presenting themselves as professionals and therefor knowledgable.