Bonds Clean?????

TMc

I have to admit...if all these players are using steroids...Bonds stuff must be better..

Report: Bonds tested for steroids last week
Posted: Monday September 27, 2004 7:28PM; Updated: Monday September 27, 2004 7:28PM


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Barry Bonds hopes his random steroid test last week will remove suspicion that he uses performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds told MLB.com that he was tested last Friday as part of baseball's new drug-testing agreement. Each player is tested once during the season.

Under the collective bargaining agreement, a player is sent to counseling for a first positive steroid test and suspended for 15 days or fined up to $10,000 for the second infraction. An infraction is not made public until a second positive test.

"I'm glad this is finally happening," Bonds told MLB.com. "They'll get the results and it will clear my name. It'll show that there's nothing behind what I've been doing [on the field] all year."

Bonds' personal trainer and longtime friend, Greg Anderson, is one of four men charged in an alleged steroid-distribution ring that federal prosecutors say supplied dozens of professional athletes with banned substances. They have pleaded not guilty.

Bonds has denied using any performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds, who has been under suspicion since hitting a record 73 home runs in 2001, has 45 homers and an NL-leading .372 batting average this season.

He has set a record with 222 walks this season. He has scored 125 runs and leads the majors with an .839 slugging percentage and .614 on-base percentage

xbaggypants

<< <i>"They'll get the results and it will clear my name. It'll show that there's nothing behind what I've been doing [on the field] all year." >>



What about the last 5 years when he was shattering records????

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>What about the last 5 years when he was shattering records???? >>

exactly what 5 years are those?

Look at his stats and tell me what 5 year period you are referring to
and how it differs (Besides the 73 hr year) from any other....

give it a shot

BONDS stats

Vincecarder

45 homers to 73 homers....that's a big difference. Taking juice one year and not the other year....that doesn't make you clean Mr. Bonds.

bobbybakeriv

First off, I have no idea whether Bonds has used the juice in the past nor am I a Bonds basher. I like the guy for the most part. That being said, there has long been a rumor that his hat size has actually increased significantly over the past several years. If this is true, it is suspicious to me. Has anyone else heard this rumor? Is there any truth to it?

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>45 homers to 73 homers....that's a big difference. Taking juice one year and not the other year....that doesn't make you clean Mr. Bonds. >>

Babe Ruth had years when he went from 29 hr to 54 the next... and from 25 to 60 in 2 seasons... (which at the time was an inconcievable number!!)
so what did HE take to enhance his performance?
It has to be something he took or cheated somehow
since you are saying that it is Impossible to have kind
of improvment from hard work and determination.... right?

or what about Hank Aaron?
what did he take?

or Mays?
or Williams?

or any other player that had good seasons hitting the ball...

?

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>First off, I have no idea whether Bonds has used the juice in the past nor am I a Bonds basher. I like the guy for the most part. That being said, there has long been a rumor that his hat size has actually increased significantly over the past several years. If this is true, it is suspicious to me. Has anyone else heard this rumor? Is there any truth to it? >>

rumors.
that is a good one.

John Kerry is trying to win the white house
by discrediting Bush this way...
Say a LIE and then say you "heard it" so it "Might be true"
but then cover your arse but calling it a "rumor"

good one!

RepublicaninMass

<< <i>

<< <i>45 homers to 73 homers....that's a big difference. Taking juice one year and not the other year....that doesn't make you clean Mr. Bonds. >>

Babe Ruth had years when he went from 29 hr to 54 the next... and from 25 to 60 in 2 seasons... (which at the time was an inconcievable number!!)
so what did HE take to enhance his performance?
It has to be something he took or cheated somehow
since you are saying that it is Impossible to have kind
of improvment from hard work and determination.... right?

or what about Hank Aaron?
what did he take?

or Mays?
or Williams?

or any other player that had good seasons hitting the ball...

? >>



At the time, I guess Ruth would have had to smoke whale growth hormones to acheive those numbers.

Axtell

First, it seems a bit ridiculous of Bonds to come out and say how a test now, 5 years after the fact, proves he's been clean for all time.

Second, there aren't years where Ruth or Aaron bumped up over 50% over their career highs one year, then continued to raise above those previous career highs at an age of 35+.

Third, why do people insist on bringing politics into a sports discussion? Bush backers always seem to try to inject their views whenever they can it appears.

joker73

<< <i>Third, why do people insist on bringing politics into a sports discussion? Bush backers always seem to try to inject their views whenever they can it appears. >>



Pot, meet kettle ...

phreakydancin

Hey that's my line!

Now the truth can be told! Roger Maris was on steroids too! Look at how his 61* season stands out from his other seasons! Now we know what the asterisk was for! STATS

AkbarClone

The Bush/Cheney administration can lie all they want, with no accountability whatsoever. But if a Democrat lies, then that's just wrong.

Back to the Open Forum partisan-hater hypocrite!

schr1st

Consider the 222 walks he has had this season. Lets say for the sake of argument that one out of every 10 walks would have been a home run (a reasonable possibility). That would bring his HR total up to 67. If you just want to consider the difference between the # of walks he had in 2001 vs. 2004, then he'd probably just have another 5 home runs. Still certainly not bad.

In addition, he'd probably get at lease one better pitch per at bat if the Giants actually had someone behind him in the lineup that would worry opposing pitchers.



<< <i>45 homers to 73 homers....that's a big difference. Taking juice one year and not the other year....that doesn't make you clean Mr. Bonds. >>

WinPitcher

i just wish that he would not stand at the plate after he hits one out. tells me all i need to know about how arrogant he is

aro13

~"I have to admit...if all these players are using steroids...Bonds stuff must be better.."~

Some players have better abilities to begin with and a better steroid program. Check out Ben Johnson in the 100 metres. He was on steroids for over 9 years and went through numerous tests before he finally tested positive (and even that test was suspicious). One negative test either proves Bonds is not on steroids at this time, or he has a good cover up method. Take your pick. Unfortunately, most people will still choose the latter regardless.

dallasactuary

<< <i>Babe Ruth had years when he went from 29 hr to 54 the next... and from 25 to 60 in 2 seasons... (which at the time was an inconcievable number!!)
so what did HE take to enhance his performance?
It has to be something he took or cheated somehow
since you are saying that it is Impossible to have kind
of improvment from hard work and determination.... right?

or what about Hank Aaron?
what did he take?

or Mays?
or Williams?

or any other player that had good seasons hitting the ball...

? >>




I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but the seasons you cite for Ruth - 29 to 54 in one season and 25 to 60 in two seasons - well, he was a pitcher for most of the season when he hit 29 and he was injured and out for almost half the season when he hit 25. Look at his career as an uninjured outfielder and there are little bumps here and there but nothing close to Bonds-like. And I'm not at all sure why you mentioned Aaron since he's probably the most consistent year-to-year homerun hitter in history and nowhere near the top 20 in HR per AB.

As for Bonds, he hit a HR every 20.3 AB in his many years in Pittsburgh, improved to one every 12.6 AB by moving to SF in 1993-1999 (comparable to Mays and McCovey in their prime) and then improved to one every 8.2 AB (by either taking steroids or inhaling the same magic pixie dust that people who can ignore how inhumanly large his head has become must be taking) in 2000 to now.

One thing all of the names mentioned have in common, other than Bonds, is that they - like all other human beings not benefitting from modern pharmacology - saw their numbers trend downward over their careers.

It's a free country and we can believe whatever we want, but the simplest and most obvious explanation (seriously, look at the man's head) is usually right.

calleocho

bengineno9

Does New Era make a size 9 fitted hat? Must be custom made or something.
And i thought my 7 1/2 dome was a little large.

Calleocho,
Where did you find that card of Urkel?

CADILLACN97

and it only took him 21 years to get that big? i won't say he did or didn't pop roids, but you can't compare pictures, especially 21 years apart. find a pic from 93 or 94 when he first came to san fran. he wasn't much smaller than he is now. so it's impossible to gain that much muscle mass in 10-11 years with strict training and a gym? i've seen scrawny, 150 pound people get bigger than him now in just 2 or 3 years at the gym with proper diet and weight training, and without taking any supplements at all. bonds must just sit at home getting fat during the offseason, with his only lifting being a remote control. c'mon.

koby

<< <i>and it only took him 21 years to get that big? i won't say he did or didn't pop roids, but you can't compare pictures, especially 21 years apart. find a pic from 93 or 94 when he first came to san fran. he wasn't much smaller than he is now. so it's impossible to gain that much muscle mass in 10-11 years with strict training and a gym? i've seen scrawny, 150 pound people get bigger than him now in just 2 or 3 years at the gym with proper diet and weight training, and without taking any supplements at all. bonds must just sit at home getting fat during the offseason, with his only lifting being a remote control. c'mon. >>



Very true. I have ballooned from 170 in college to 250 in only eight years and my college friends can't even recognize me anymore. Just a lot of fast foods and sedentary desk jobs. No steroids or BALCO supplements here.

cardboardjungle

Maris definitely holds the record for most home runs hit while smoking 2 packs of filterless Camels every day.

DirtyHarry

How long does it take for the roids to exit your system? How long was Barry stuck on 699?

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>How long was Barry stuck on 699? >>

how many WALKS did he get then?

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>I have to admit...if all these players are using steroids...Bonds stuff must be better..

Report: Bonds tested for steroids last week
Posted: Monday September 27, 2004 7:28PM; Updated: Monday September 27, 2004 7:28PM


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Barry Bonds hopes his random steroid test last week will remove suspicion that he uses performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds told MLB.com that he was tested last Friday as part of baseball's new drug-testing agreement. Each player is tested once during the season.

Under the collective bargaining agreement, a player is sent to counseling for a first positive steroid test and suspended for 15 days or fined up to $10,000 for the second infraction. An infraction is not made public until a second positive test.

"I'm glad this is finally happening," Bonds told MLB.com. "They'll get the results and it will clear my name. It'll show that there's nothing behind what I've been doing [on the field] all year."

Bonds' personal trainer and longtime friend, Greg Anderson, is one of four men charged in an alleged steroid-distribution ring that federal prosecutors say supplied dozens of professional athletes with banned substances. They have pleaded not guilty.

Bonds has denied using any performance-enhancing drugs.

Bonds, who has been under suspicion since hitting a record 73 home runs in 2001, has 45 homers and an NL-leading .372 batting average this season.

He has set a record with 222 walks this season. He has scored 125 runs and leads the majors with an .839 slugging percentage and .614 on-base percentage >>

So, any word on this?
or are you all still just Accusing with no facts
whatsoever....

I would be interested to know if there EVER Was a positve test.

Good luck with your witch hunt.

DirtyHarry

If he had a team behind him, he would not be walked as much. Also, if he had any stones like the great players before him, he would not just sit there and work his way on base for a walk...he would swing at a few pitches out of the strike zone. But he's a jerk making his millions.

Gemmy10

If he uses Irish Spring soap.

metsfan

<< <i>45 homers to 73 homers....that's a big difference. Taking juice one year and not the other year....that doesn't make you clean Mr. Bonds. >>

Strange comment. This year he is hitting hr's at a rate of every 8.1 ab's. In 2001 his rate was one per every 6.5 ab's. So he's down a little. He also has a .825 slg pct and over .600 oba. His slg pct in 2001 was .863. He doesnt have the homers this year,but he's having a staggering year. Also hitting over .360!l

CADILLACN97

it's just hard for people to believe that we are witnessing probably one of the greatest players (if not the) of all time, right here in the flesh. we fear what we don't understand, and discredit what isn't the norm. it's easier for us to assume he broke the rules, than to put him on a pedestal with the greats. we all grew up on mantle, mays, aaron, and ruth, and it's hard to think that someone from OUR time can rank with those players. but 20 years from now we will look back and tell our kids and grandkids how WE got to watch bonds, like our dads and grandpas tell us how great mantle, rose, and aaron were. why is bonds the only issue. sosa will be #5 by the end of next season, his cranium is twice the size of barry's. since random testing AND a corked bat, what has he done? 25 homers this year. but that's ok cause he put on as much mass as bonds in about 6 years when it took barry about 10. what about thome, he's bigger than my house. how about manny? who will be next? were brady anderson, shawn green and luis gonzalez on roids when they hit 50 homers in a season. my pitbull is bigger than any of those, they must have just been testing them for one season.

CADILLACN97

straight from MLB.com,
bonds has had one season of over 50 homers in a season.
mcgwire has had 3, sosa has had 4, even griffey has had 3.
maris has went from #1 to #7 for homers in a season. i'm no doctor, but i would think that if you took steroids for many years it would be to benefit you for more than one season. and it would take more than one off season of steriod use to get as big as bonds or sosa, by the look of pictures they have been taking (not an accusation, just hypothetically) them since 93-95, so why bring it to light in 2004?

All-Time HR seasons

also from mlb.com,
bonds has 309 more intentional walks than aaron (bonds is #1 at 602, aaron at #2 with 293) in 1861 less plate appearances. if their numbers were even REMOTELY close, bonds would have broken the record 3 years ago, and have over 800 by now.

All-Time IBB

kehfee

His slugging might be down a bit but his OBP is up. I believe this season might be his finest in terms of OPS. Which would also be the best OPS anyone has ever put up.

When it comes to the roids scandal people believe what they want to believe. Some people hate this guy because the media basically tells them to. They've never even met the guy.

DeutscherGeist

I am not a Bonds fan, but I will say this.

There is no substantial evidence that he has used steroids or any other substance banned by professional athletics.

We are all just speculating here. Steroids are old drugs and there have been many new performance enhancing drugs since that time. A test for steroids is just a test for steroids at that particular moment. There are so many other sports enhancements out there where there may not be any tests for them. The Olympics have revealed that the sports enhancing drugs keep changing and the tests do not always catch up so fast.

Also, if Bonds does take any sports enhancing drugs, I dout he would select steroids since there have been so many other products on the market. Also, steroids can allow a person to workout without having to rest the muscles so much, so the muscle building process visibly accelerates. So what. In baseball, you need hand eye coordination more than bulk to be successful. Steroids do not enhance your vision and ability to see the ball. Keep in mind that Bonds has a high batting average and rarely strikes out. That is not steroids in my opinion. One does not need so much bulk to hit the ball out. No one here considers Mattingly a bulked up athlete, yet no one has shattered the MLB record for most homers (10) in 8 consecutive games or most grandslams in one season (6). Look at the big picture and be critical.

Some say that Bonds has actually improved since age 35. Well, there are so many different training techniques and diets that we don't always have to scream STEROIDS when a player does something outstanding. Age is also dependent on one's mindset. Many keep hearing that things go down hill after age 35 so one ends up believing that perception of reality as gospel. Who says 40 is fatal? Granted, if you sit around all day and eat junk food, you age faster. However, if you constantly stay ahead of your body and adjust accordingly, then the aging process will slow down alot.

Just my 2 cents.

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>His slugging might be down a bit but his OBP is up. I believe this season might be his finest in terms of OPS. Which would also be the best OPS anyone has ever put up.. >>

true
also he is getting the record for career OBP.

the man is just good.

and others are jealous.
period.

gemint

For people questioning Bonds, I wonder why they don't also question Roger Clemens or even Randy Johnson for that matter. Their performance levels into their 40s are equally remarkable. Is that the result of steroids? I don't know if Bonds is on steroids, but you can't tell by stats alone. Ken Caminiti was on steroids and did have an MVP season but his stats weren't so remarkable that you'd expect he was juicing. On the other hand, you have one or two year anamolies like the ones Maris, Norm Cash, Bert Campenaris and George Foster had, yet nobody questions if they were on steroids.

RonD

Bonds had been given plenty of "warning" he was going to be tested. It is very easy, with time to prepare, to beat the test. A random test would have been more appropriate. Odds are you will not catch a guy driving drunk if you tell him what time, day and intersection the sobriety check point is ocurring.

I know many guys who have been subjected to performance enhancing drug tests and the science for beating those tests is even more complicated than the programs employed with using steroids and growth hormone.

Bonds is a great player and incredibly talented. I am not a big fan of him personal but appreicate what he is able to do. I can also guarantee that he uses. Been around it enough to know.

aro13

~"true
also he is getting the record for career OBP"~

From where did you pull this amazing stat?


Bonds will be establishing the SINGLE SEASON OBP record but for his career he ranks 6th all time at .442. Williams and Ruth, two pretty fair hitters themselves, rank one-two at .481 and .473. I wonder what Bonds career OBP would be if he hit in front of Gehrig like Ruth did for most of his career?
His career OPS is fourth at 1.054 behind Ruth, Williams and Gehrig. Nice company to be keeping for certain. However, no worries about Ruth taking any form of Steroids - unless hot dogs count - as he probably never saw a gym in his life.

zsz70

I agree with RonD that chances are pretty darn good
that he's a user.

There's also a drug that you can take that allows you to beat
these tests.

Athletes unfortunately are so much like politicians.
If they can use something to their advantage, they will.
However, there are many athletes playing by the rules.

To go off the subject a little,
what if we had a pitcher who could throw a fastball
150 mph. He could strike out batters with his right
hand and left hand, but he didn't beat Nolan Ryan's
all time K total. Would this pitcher be considered
the greatest K pitcher of all time over Ryan ?
He couldn't play as long as Ryan because of injuries.

Well, Mickey Mantle hit 560 foot homers compared
to Bonds' little pokes of 440 and such. Mantle also
did this without a juiced ball. He also did it from
both sides of the plate.

DirtyHarry

zsz70 - Mantle could sure launch one. I still have the back page from The NY Daily News from the day that Mantle hit one that bounced off the very top of the fascade in right field at Yankee Stadium. Missed going out by a few inches (nobody has ever hit one out). Based on the trajectory of the ball (it was still rising) it was estimated that the blast would have exceeded 660 feet. Thanks for the memory. Regards.

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>what if we had a pitcher who could throw a fastball
150 mph. He could strike out batters with his right
hand and left hand, but he didn't beat Nolan Ryan's
all time K total. Would this pitcher be considered
the greatest K pitcher of all time over Ryan ? >>

If he did not
beat the best, then he is just either really good
or "had the potential to be great"
or "we will never know how good he Could have been"

but he would not BE the best if he did not out perform
the best.

Mantle was great... but not the best.
sorry.

DirtyHarry

BKAH - you get quite emotional on this issue. I, for one, have always said that Barry Bonds is no doubt the greatest hitter in the modern era. But, I don't like him...my perogative...because he is a jerk and an ingrate and pales in comparison relative to modern era players who have respect for the game and the fans that make him his millions. He was consistently, and true to his historic behavior..a jerk when MLB needed it most from players on the field to keep the game whole after the strike seasons. Guys like Ripken, McGuire, Griffey, Sosa helped keep the fan base. You always imply that somebody is "jealous" or some other nonsense when they have a different point of view. I am not jealous of him - I would not want to be him. He's a twisted mealy-mouthed jerk.

He is no way the greatest player ever. He is just the best hitter in modern times. As an all around player - he could not shine the shoes of Ruth, Gerhig, Williams, DiMaggio, Mays, Mantle, Aaron and many others.

downgoesfrazier

This is why I hate when this subject comes up. I cannot believe the amount of ignorance and unsubstantiated claims that spew forth from the arm-chair never-beens. While some of you post reasonable hypothesis and make some valid arguments to one side or the other (thank you for your insights), the majority of you seem to be announcing your candidacy for "idiot of the year".

There is not now any proof either way surrounding this issue and Bonds career. Whether or not there ever will be remains to be seen. How many of you guys who have posted about his steroid use being an integral part of his success have played the game beyond 6th grade rec league or used anabolic-androgenic drugs or any synthetic male hormone? How about both together? Do you have ANY understanding of what it takes to do what Bonds does? Do you have any idea how many milligrams of testosterone Bonds produces naturally every day? Do you care? The answer is "enough" for a world-class, well-trained, meticulous, driven and pride-full athlete like Bonds. Do the steroids suddenly make a hitter manage his at bats better? Do they somehow help a hitter get his hands inside of a 94 mph fastball aimed at his sack and somehow manage to keep it fair beyond 400 feet? Do they help him pick up a pitcher's release and rotation so early that he can separate, slot and fire the barrel inside-out and launch a sinking fastball on the outer-third 380 with backspin to left-center? Of course not.

If there were a gun to my head and I HAD to be right, I guess Bonds has used some performance enhancing supplementation after age 35...virtually all players these days do as trainers know more about the make-up of our endocrine and other systems. Their jobs are to help athletes deal with the onset of age and fatigue. NO MAJOR-LEAGUE PLAYERS PLAY A FULL SEASON "NAKED"...NONE. Whether it's caffeine or some other stimulant or a performance-enhancing drug they just don't. That doesn't mean they are all using banned substances, just helping themselves stay ready during a season that would kill an average sedentary male. Steroids? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, popping three dianabol tablets ain't gonna make it happen on a Wednesday night on the east coast in the late innings with fog rolling in against a lefty that was brought in for the sole purpose of getting Bonds--and only Bonds--out in the 8th inning of the final game on get away day of a 13-game 15-day road trip through Philly, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and New York. Most of you guys couldn't hit as many wiffle balls over your hedges in an entire summer off your 6-year-old sons as Bonds hits homers on a road-trip! Ask yourself "Would steroids help me get that wiffle ball past the grill, over the sliding doors and onto my neighbor's house for a roof-shot?" Of course not.

And as for the great Mickey Mantle outhitting Bonds for distance or anything else, you've gotta be kidding!!! Mickey Mantle was a special presence on the American Sporting landscape for quite some time, but he wasn't as good as Willie...and there ain't no way Willie (my favorite player ever) is anywhere as good as his God-son...not even close. Deal with this: Barry Bonds is the greatest player in the history of baseball at any level. Period.

dgf

dallasactuary

<< <i>announcing your candidacy for "idiot of the year". >>





<< <i>Deal with this: Barry Bonds is the greatest player in the history of baseball at any level. Period. >>




You announced your candidacy with a flourish - and you won.

DirtyHarry

"Barry Bonds is the greatest player in the history of baseball..period"

Downgoesfrazier -

What an uninformed comment. He is one dimensional. Greatest hitter in this era maybe...that's all. Otherwise, a clown and drain on the history and the importance of the sport. He'll get his due. Good for him. That's all.

Edited to remove excessive sarcasm.

RonD

DGF

The truth is Bonds, and for that matter every man his age, does not produce enough testosterone naturally to continue to grow the muscle mass and improve at his game. If you want me to bore you with the science behind that I will.

<< <i>How many of you guys who have posted about his steroid use being an integral part of his success have played the game beyond 6th grade rec league or used anabolic-androgenic drugs or any synthetic male hormone? >>

FIrst part of the question is NO but YES to the second part. I can assure you that HGH, anabolic and androgenic steriods will have a profound impact on one's performance. Can it turn a .250 19 HR a year guy into a Bonds type player? Absolutely not. Bonds is a great player with lots of talent.

These kinds of drugs are used by many athletes in virtually every amateur and professional sport. If you think that working out and eating one's Wheaties makes one excel in their given field you are fooling yourself.

downgoesfrazier

RonD, 6-10 lbs of lean-mass per year is a fact, and you made my argument better than I did. Anyway, I assure you that I also can share the "science" with you and the average male produces 17/day with levels beginning to decline between age 32-35. I agree that high levels of these substances can impact a player on some levels, but NOT the ones I eluded to in my post. Further, there is still no proof of anything. None.

Harry & Dal,
I forget more about this game daily than you'll learn in a lifetime so go back to reading your baseball encyclopedia and listening to people talk in bars. That sounds about right for your level of baseball acumen. Bonds is the best--an Everest in Kansas in an era of jurassic numbers. One dimensional...maybe you SHOULD check out your encyclopedia. I guess I do win idiot of the year for attempting to educate you guys about something you guys have never taken and a game many have never played beyond a sandlot and in your fantasy-league heads. Heck, you guys would get tired of a road-trip just VISITING the parks he and others play in every night in the time-frame they do it in . I am impressed that you guys knew who I was referring to as "idiots of the year"...well done picking yourselves out of that line-up.



Anyway, the original post was really supposed to be stalin-bait. We get into it every year and I thought this would be a hoot.
The boards need a little sass and spice these days. This topic just stirs it up in me. I get worried when people post opinions that are dangerous and uninformed--the fear is that someone else uninformed will take that word as Gospel and an innocent man who works very hard will have his name tarnished. None of us would like ANY allegation that is unsubstantiated posted on a public forum about our personal lives or job performance. That's all there is to it.


dgf

BugOnTheRug

I have avoided Bonds' posts the past year or so because of such uninformed information spewed about by the, as DGF so rightly states, 'bar talkers'. I purposely read and am replying to his post because of DGF - his knowledge about the game excedes ALL who have posted here. If you 'huff' at that statement, try PM'ing some respected members of this board and they may clue you into what level he knows the game. Then you will need to stick your foot in your mouth for comfort when you find out.

BKAH emotional? Yeah maybe at times, but he also studies the game and purposely programs his TV endeavors to include all Giants broadcasts for the sole purpose of watching Bonds on a day to day basis, all this while on the east coast. Gee, do you think he may have at least a little insight into how Bonds affects a game or even a series?

As for me, I've followed Bonds his entire career, as I have lived in western PA and the SF bay area, paralleling a good portion of his career. I've watched him since the beginning. Does that make me an expert? Nope, but it does make me well informed of his baseball life with the Pirates and Giants.

It's sooo refreshing (cough and puke) to still see the vast majority of folks 'know' Bonds in on 'steroid's, whatever that means today. I have to agree with DGF's, Roach's, and BKAH's take on the steroid issue - until there is publicized truth that Bonds did it and all the particulars, I will stand on the sidelines until he is proven guilty. Why? Because I don't really know the truth, just like the rest of you don't know either!!! (Guessing makes you look stupid, and I see a lot of stupidity here)

So while the steroid issue is present, I want the follow questions answered fully by those who 'know' Bonds is on steroids:

1) If steriods has affected his batting speed and power, why has his arm strength, in relation to velocity on a thrown ball from left field, not increased (and has even gotten slower) during the time of his 'usage'. He's always had an accurate arm, so why not the velocity like Vlad's?
Does it only work in the batter's box and not in left field?

2) Supposedly Gaimbi and Bonds were in the same boat the past few years. Why has Giambi's performance not been on par with Bonds'? Steriods supposedly make and average players better and a good player great. Where is Giambi in all of this?

Now run to the bar to find the answers!!!!

BOTR

WinPitcher

now if he would only stop showing up the pitchers.....run damnit

aro13

~"Deal with this: Barry Bonds is the greatest player in the history of baseball at any level. Period."~

DGF - While I respect your baseball knowledge you should be aware that somebody stole your username and ID for this post.


~"BKAH emotional? Yeah maybe at times, but he also studies the game and purposely programs his TV endeavors to include all Giants broadcasts for the sole purpose of watching Bonds on a day to day basis, all this while on the east coast. Gee, do you think he may have at least a little insight into how Bonds affects a game or even a series?"~

BugOnTheRug - I would guess, or at least hope, you are referring to DGF when you say they study the game and watch Bonds on a daily basis, as I highly doubt BKAH has the ability to "study the game".

downgoesfrazier

aro13,



<< <i>DGF - While I respect your baseball knowledge you should be aware that somebody stole your username and ID for this post.

>>





That was genuinely funny. Seriously though, can you name another player who has been intentionally walked with the bases loaded? Or how about with one out and nobody on in the third inning...or fifth as happened Friday evening? Who else has stolen the bases Bonds has and hit for power as he has? Who has combined the gold gloves, batting titles, slugging titles and has been in peak form longer than he has? I'll entertain that a handful of players were offensive equals for a spell (Ted Williams, Rogers Hornsby, Rickey Henderson, Babe Ruth to name just a couple). None of these did what Bonds does in multiple categories year after year. The closest peer Bonds actually has production-wise is Henderson. I am also quite confident of this, if I had been supplanted from the 1980's to the 1930's skill-wise as a player (literally time-machined to 1932), I would have been a very solid major-league player with strong numbers. While there is no real way to prove this, I believe that any "sub 7.0" athlete that can throw 80 mph+ and can hit a baseball 400 ft.+ would have also been a very strong player in that era. The science, technology, and sheer size of the players is just different. Although I truly think the GAME was better in the 20's (the 30's game looked like today's game strategically), the talent is really incomparable. In fact, when I retired and started coaching in the early 90's through today I can confidently state that the kids we sent to Division I's in 1990 would have a hard time cracking our starting HS Varsity line-up just a decade and a half later. The landscape of the game is ever-changing. There are still six outs in an inning, four balls, three strikes, 90 feet, etc., but the athletes performing the tasks are just physically more dynamic across the board.

I'd love to say that Willie Mays or Ty Cobb is the greatest player ever. Heck, the Babe was one heck of a LHP. He actually held the scoreless streak record in the world series until 1961 when Ford broke it (1961 was a tough year for George). That would be romantic and pay homage to the players that make us feel young and first thrilled us and brought us to the game that we still love. Sadly for us, perhaps, Bonds is just a superior player and specimen in all regards. Consider this: he has an OBP of well over .600 against the finest pitchers the world has to offer. I struggled to fire that off against the locals in junior high...many of you did, too. He is dwarfing...I say DWARFING what the greats have done. Again, he is an "Everest in Kansas" during an era when the numbers are positively jurassic.


dgf

BigKidAtHeart

[qBugOnTheRug - I would guess, or at least hope, you are referring to DGF when you say they study the game and watch Bonds on a daily basis, as I highly doubt BKAH has the ability to "study the game". >>

well at lest I know who my friends are and
who are not.

aro13

~"Seriously though, can you name another player who has been intentionally walked with the bases loaded? Or how about with one out and nobody on in the third inning...or fifth as happened Friday evening"

George Brett has been intentionally walked at least twice with the bases loaded - once by Bobby Cox in 1985 and once by me in Strat-O-Matic in 1980. I also have seen Brett intentionally walked with runners on first and second and two out. However, on a consistent basis, no.

~"I am also quite confident of this, if I had been supplanted from the 1980's to the 1930's skill-wise as a player (literally time-machined to 1932), I would have been a very solid major-league player with strong numbers. While there is no real way to prove this, I believe that any "sub 7.0" athlete that can throw 80 mph+ and can hit a baseball 400 ft.+ would have also been a very strong player in that era"~
~"The landscape of the game is ever-changing. There are still six outs in an inning, four balls, three strikes, 90 feet, etc., but the athletes performing the tasks are just physically more dynamic across the board."~


That first point certainly has its merits. The second one is definately true. However, players, particularly superstars adapt era to era. Tew Williams was a great hitter in 1939 and a great hitter in 1959. Nolan Ryan a great pitcher in the early 70's and great in the late 80's. Barry Bonds was a very good hitter in the early 90's and now 14 years later he is dominant. Superstars adapt and change with the times around them. This statement is true in all sports. Most athletic records involving speed or strength are constantly being broken. Except of course for women's track and field records from the 80's which still last to this day. I wonder why their records are still unbroken, after all they never tested positive once for a performance enhancing drug. Oh well, an argument for another time.

Also, if you were going to be transplanted into 1932 would you be able to swing the bats from the era, would you have been able to get better without the technology of today available?

Bonds is a great player, probably too good for belief. However, his career OBP is not greater than Williams, Ruth or Gehrig. Bonds has three of the top 10 OBP's ever but Ruth also has three and Williams has two. Bonds has three of the top 10 slugging percentages of all-time but Ruth has 4. Even giving Bonds an advantage over Ruth and Williams as a hitter all-time given his dominance in today's era, the fact remains that Ruth was also a DOMINANT pitcher. How much of the game is pitching? Ruth excelled in the two most important phases of the game, pitching and hitting. Bonds exels in one.

Also, while Bonds numbers have always been great it has only been the last four years where they have become beyond human belief. Before that he was a great player but hardly mentioned as the greatest of all-time.

Finally, a quick question for you, "Why do major league pitchers look so bad while batting?" After all, these guys were probably all-star players their whole life right up until college. I understand it is unrealistic for them to even hit .200 but why do most of them look like they have never swung a bat before?

DirtyHarry

Yes - Barry Bonds is the greatest player in the modern era. I have taken that position many times in the past. Yes - I dislike him because of his repeated insolence over the years. Still doesn't change the first part of the equation.

As for eveything else..... it's just opinions. And you know what they say about opinions.....everyone has one. I don't frequent bars and have access to the same resources as anyone else. You can spin the numbers, of course with the assumption that everything else is a constant (which it's not)....and have your opinion. Mine is that he is not the greatest player ever. That IMO belongs to Babe Ruth for now. Bonds falls in the top 5, and where he ends up is TBD when his career is over. Regards.