1841-o Seated Dime variety ?
jdimmick
Posts: 9,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
Does anyone know if the 1841-o Seated Dime with a very small Micro O commands a premium?
jim
jim
0
Comments
<< <i>PM dismeguy. He is the all-time seated dime expert. >>
No disrespect to Gerry, who is one of the top Seated Dime specialists, but all-time? I know a couple guys who are his equal if not more knowledgeable.
Steve asked you if it has open or closed buds on the reverse. Check your coin and let us know.
Ray
I've only met Jerry once, and I'm not a dime guy, but I'd like to see those guys who have more on the ball in the area of varieties than him. Personally, the time involved to track varieties is monumental.
It overwhelmed me early on. I just decided to head to the rarer date UNC's where life was simpler and less cluttered.
Kudos to Jerry on the research he has assembled.
roadrunner
<< <i>I hate to sound dumb, but what bud are you referring too? >>
The flower buds on the reverse wreath. They will look closed or open?
<< <i>I hate to sound dumb, but what bud are you referring too? >>
Ok, the "berries" on the reverse in the wreath.....are they solid or are they split?
Ray
thanks
steve
<< <i>No disrespect to Gerry, who is one of the top Seated Dime specialists, but all-time? I know a couple guys who are his equal if not more knowledgeable. >>
<< <i>but I'd like to see those guys who have more on the ball in the area of varieties than him. >>
Roadrunner-I'm sure you have heard of Brian Greer or Jim O'Donnell?
Steve
jim
I certainly have. Had many fine talks with Jim over the years. OK. So where are the names of the guys who are "probably better"
than Jerry? Seriously though, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I don't even have Greer's dime book in my library as it offered nothing much above and beyond what I researched on my own over 20 years ago. Same goes for the quarter book by Briggs. And on the UNC data, I go with my own notes and the pop reports in these areas. I'm not making light of these 2 fine works, they just served no purpose in what I look for. Jerry's work is at a whole different level. What WB did to half dollar varieties is what Jerry's research does to the dimes.
I only met Greer once years back and based on that really don't have much to say about him. Jim is always a pleasure to talk too but he has firm opinions that grate many people the wrong way. But I know they're going to come out when I talk to him and I look forward to his contrarian views. I love him for his honesty and history of the seated area going back a decade or more before I got started. I wish I saw him more often at shows to talk "seated." I am very opiniated as to who can or cannot grade MS seated material but that's for another time....maybe. It has nothing to do with who knows about varieties and their rarity. These are 2 totally different topics. Kam Ahwash was very knowledgeable in the seated area and possibly the most knowledgeable back in the 70's, but grading coins was not his forte. As a collector first, strike, rather than luster and surface preservation was foremost on his mind. It just isn't like that today based on how TPG's grade. For that reason I was never able to buy an UNC coin from Kam. We just agreed to disagree on what UNC meant to each of us.
roadrunner
<< <i>OK. So where are the names of the guys who are "probably better" >>
Didn't I just give you two names?
I didn't say "probably better" I said "who are his equal if not more knowledgeable"
The original satatement I was replying to said
<< <i>PM dismeguy. He is the all-time seated dime expert. >>
It didn't say Variety specialist. There is much more to know about a series than just varieties. I just wanted to mention that, if someone writes a book, that doesn't make them the most knowledgeable person in their area of expertice. Maybe Gerry is the best at varieties? I was talking about all aspects of Seated Dimes.
You mentioned Randy Wiley, who co-authored the Seated Half book, I would think that Dick Osburn has as much knowledge of Seated Half Varieties as Randy, even though he hasn't written a book. I haven't asked him?
Gerry-if you read this, please don't take offense, the work you have done is fantastic.
WB's, and now Fortin's work are excellent works and a cut above the others, without question imo.
As far as Greer being the all-time dime guy, whatever floats your boat. We all have our favorites.
roadrunner
<< <i>I never said that "not writing" a book implied a lack of knowledge. But rather, writing an excellent reference work does imply you know your stuff, assuming it's your work, which in Jerry's case is true. >>
<< <i>As far as Greer being the all-time dime guy, whatever floats your boat. We all have our favorites. >>
<< <i>roadrunner >>
Man, you're a piece of work!!! You can twist my words around anyway you want to your liking.
By the way it's Gerry with a G, not J!!
Maybe you should check out Gerry's website: WWWseateddimevarieties.com (Look under Acknowledgements)
<< <i>The issue who is or was the "best" is a moot point when you are using subjective criteria. Lets say that you guys are talking about a handful of people with significant expertise and talent. Each one has contributed in their own ways. Which of them or a few other candidates is the best is not important. >>
Trime
By the way, there is a MS65 1848 dime coming up for sale in ANR.
I know you are somewhat partial to dimes.
I've always loved this date in choice UNC and have yet to own one.
The ANR coin appears to have a large right obv field luster break but finding a decent 1848 is no small feat, even more so for the quarter. Two coins I've lusted after for years but have yet to own above MS63. The pops show 9 MS 65's by both services, yet I've never run across one that I can recall being honestly "nice." At least there wasn't anything available prior to 1990.
You can twist my words around anyway you want to your liking.
By the way it's Gerry with a G, not J!!
Words and how they are stated are important Elwood. You can't spout off all over the place and then realize what you said was not exactly what you meant. Trying to defend an "all-ecompassing" statement frequently leads to a lambasting around here. Just ask Iwog. As far as spelling Jerry's formal name wrong: mea culpa. If you'd like me to go through your posts and pull out the mispellings just ask. I work with 2 guys named Gerry in my daily work and both go by "Jerry" in all their informal correspondence and emails. I would imagine that this is the norm in our society. I apologize if any harm was done to Mr. Fortin or yourself by the mispelling.
roadrunner
roadrunner
I was being a bit hyperbolic after looking at Gerry's CD (it's hard not to be). I would definitely agree that there are a lot of resources out there (both dealers and collectors) and the astute collector will gather knowledge from multiple places, including these boards - sometimes
It's just too tempting..not to put my two cents in:
It's been about 25 years since Kam Ahwash passed away at a very early age. Coin collecting has changed a lot during that period of time. There are few non-modern series that have progressed in interest and information more than the seated series. What did Kam accomplish during his time?
1. He was one of the first dealers to specialize in the seated series.
2. He wrote the first comprehesive book on seated dimes.
3. He was one of the founders of the LSCC.
4. His articles and Q&A series in the early editions of the Gobrecht Journal were a huge part of its subsequent success.
5. Kam at one time owned and then sold many of the seated dime rarities that are known today.
6. Kam was amazingly willing to share his knowledge of and enthusiasm for the seated series with all of his fellow collectors.
Kam was seated, when seated wasn't cool. Along with McCloskey, the two have to be given a great deal of credit for the overall advancement of the seated series today. No doubt, Kam would be astounded that Brian Greer published a second book with even more varieties and we would probably be overwhelmed with the thought of the further progress made by Fortin with varieties and die states / die marriages.
I think it is hard to compare the expertise of men that lived in such very different times. Kam lived and worked in a period when there were very, very few reference materials on seated coins, when air travel was more limited, when the number of national shows was more limited and when imaging of coins and the use of personal computers was non-existent.
So in conclusion, there may not be an "all time" best.....but we shouldn't be so willing to quickly forget the incredible contribution that Kam Ahwash made to the seated dime series. His writing the first book on seated dimes was only a very small part of his contribution to the seated series.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Thanks to these writers and editors, present and future, for filling my library and sometimes my head with the information that makes collecting a pleasure.
Incidentally, One idea that to my knowledge that has not come to pass is an on line chat site for LS colectors to supplement the Gobrecht Journal. In my dreams it would be habitated by the key people that make up the core of the LSCC surrounded by a the rest of us wanabe students of the field. I would not be surprised to find that many unhearalded experts would surface and that such a format would increase interest in these coin series.
Many excellent points have been made in this discussion thread. My seated dime expertise lies in two areas namely, die varieties and the frequency of their appearance over the past 15 years. To build this database requires an incredible commitment for continual examination of seated dimes across all internet venues and at coin shows. As for rarity knowledge, I've attempted to define rarity levels of important varieties and die marriages. Brian Greer's rarity levels at the date/grade level were state of the art for seated dimes in 1992. I've followed in his footsteps, taking the state of the art to a new level with the advantage of internet and PC technology.
Having studied and collected the seated dime series during the age of certification, I believe my grading skills have evolved dramatically. There is no question that I will have differences with others on grading, at times with Jim O'Donnell's raw coins as he is from the same school as Kam Ahwash where strike is the dominate variable and the technical condition of the surfaces is subordinated. Jim's memory of great coins is on that basis, while my present knowledge has been shaped by PCGS standard's for mint state and almost uncirculated coins.
My opinion on the all time seated dime expert.....
Jim O'Donnell - a wealthy historian who was active in a hot bed of collecting (NYC) at a young age. Jim is a date and mintmark rarity expert but don't talk varieties with Jim, he's not into that field of numismaticts....
Kam Ahwash - The pioneer with pencil and paper.....I'm rather amazed at the accuracy of his encyclopedia, but remember John McCloskey provided significant support to Kam's effort.
Brian Greer - The variety and circulated grade rarity pioneer....Brian was my mentor and with time I exceeded the depth of Brian's understanding of varieties as he moved into all series of US coinage to make a living as a dealer
Gerry Fortin - The student of Ahwash and Greer.....used his computer expertise and Fairchild stock account to precisely research and collect seated dimes at the die state/marriage frontier extending the research of Ahwash and Greer
Bottomline.....
If you have strong opinions about who is the all time expert on seated dimes, then please buy a membership at www.seateddimevarieties.com....I challenge all of you (yes, Steve Elwood) to take the time (may a day or two) to examine and consider the depth of information contained in the web-book. I've worked on this project endlessly since 1992. The time invested to catalogue, photograph and describe each coin is staggering. Only those individuals who have every written a book of this nature can understand the time investment and in instantaneous background when examining a seated dime. I hope that the web-book will be recognized and well received, creating a new generation of seated dime collectors.
Someone has to buy my seated dime variety collection
Gerry