Opinions sought regarding multiple submissions

Boom

I'm curious and thought I would ask you guys what your opinions are.

I have a BUNCH of coins to submit, however, they fall in to different TYPES of submissions.

I have 40 or so, Super nice Washington Quarters-(actually more) raw beauties that should grade 66 and 67 as I have sorted, screened, pre-graded, re-graded, checked and double checked again, until I have satisfied myself that this group grades 66-67- even checking them against known 66s and 67s I have in my registry set. I suppose the question is, do you think the type submission (cost wise) plays a factor in the final outcome? (Pondering... economy= newer grader= lesser grades vs. 15 day= more experienced grader= better results?) Legitimate concern or needless?

Then there are coins within my set that I am CONVINCED are undergraded as I have compared them against the known 67s and not only are they AS GOOD AS but in some cases actually BETTER than some of the 67s. Example 1952-D PCGS 67-VERY rare animal, but if somehow I could send the 52-P&S which are PCGS 67 along to compare with, it becomes obvious that the 52-D is a perfect match to the other two. I've thought of sending the whole set in but... they don't ALL need regrading.

If possible,(but highly unlikely) if somehow the graders assigned to this could string out the entire set, it would again become very clear that there are many in this set deserving of upgrade. I have done so myself, many times, to be absolutely certain, again comparing all the "candidates" against the known 67s within the set. I've BEEN wanting to address this but can't seem to come up with THE solution. I would even pay David Hall himself to string out and scrutinize certain coins as compared to one another! It IS that important to me! Many a sleepless night, for almost a year has gone into researching this...checking my coins against others'.

Out of the 86 or so coins in my set, there are maybe 6 that I would change out...the rest I am very proud of! Sorry this has turned into such a long winded "question" but I may as well get it all out of me now.

Then, there are coins, still in slabs, that I cherrypicked..GORGEOUS coins including some super high end 66s( some are PCGS and just a vew are NGC) again that compare well to known 67s(Example, an ANACS 67 1947) There is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that this should go PCGS 67. That's all good with a coin that already grades 67, but what about those super 66s?) Send them in the slab or crack them out? Personally. I've had better luck IN the slabs than cracking out. This is a lot to think about and I'll incur some hefty expenses, but now that I've thrown it out there, what do you guys think?

HRH or Mike Sherman, we all know you read and participate on the boards...PLEASE, by all means, I invite you to chime in. YOUR opinions are actually being sought here as well. Thanks...sorry to take up so much space and everyones' time but I thought I'd share this with those of you whose opinions I have come to respect.

Russ

<< <i>do you think the type submission (cost wise) plays a factor in the final outcome? >>



No.

Russ, NCNE

Steve27

"do you think the type submission (cost wise) plays a factor in the final outcome?"

No, because the graders don't know the service level under which the coins were submitted.

Boom

Thanks Russ. I appreciate that! I've sometimes wondered about that!
You too Steve.

wayneherndon

I agree with Russ and Steve with one caveat. The number of graders used varies by service level. Since the assigned grade is determined by consensus, statistically one should see more variability in grades where there are fewer grades and a tighter band of grades where there are more. In short, I would think a coin is more likely to be over graded or under graded where fewer graders are used.

WH

Boom

Good point, Wayne. That's sorta what I was alluding to. The more opinions the better!

morgannut2

Boom-- Based on what I've read on small group vs. large group behavior where opinions on value ( a surrogate of grade here) are assigned independently, I believe Wayne Herndon's assessment is valid. So, the ranges of value attached to each coin (how much they "jump" in price one grade to the higher) my affect your grouping strategy. You may be willing to risk a lot of low grades if one coin is a home run.

DennisH

The two times I was given tours of the grading process at PCGS, the graders DID know the service level at which coins were submitted... because coins in each service level were sent to the Grading Room in a specific colored plastic tray.

I don't remember the exact colors that were involved, but each $100/coin submission was put in a particular color of tray, the $50 submissions in a different color, the $30 submissions in yet another color, and the Economy submissions in yet another.

My last tour was before Rick Montgomery left so things may have changed, but that's what I saw.

08HALA20

<< <i>The two times I was given tours of the grading process at PCGS, the graders DID know the service level at which coins were submitted... because coins in each service level were sent to the Grading Room in a specific colored plastic tray. >>



That would be suicide for quality and consistent grading. Human tendencies would stray from what PCGS must stand for--Quality and Consistent grading.

I could see having a certain group of graders doing 1 service level but to mix levels would not be wise.

IMHO

Rookie Joe

Boom

As I said earlier, I have utmost respect for the vast majority of you. I have learned much simply perusing these boards. There is a wealth of collective knowlege here and fellow members' eagerness to share their knowlege and experiences is what makes this particular forum priceless. Everyone brings SOMETHING to the table.

It just seems like common sense to me that the newer graders...the ones trying to learn the "PCGS way", would be made to cut their teeth on lesser valued coins and in an attempt to become a bona fide grader they just MAY tend to undergrade. Afterall, they do not want to be giving high grades away and get on the senior graders' and the bosses wrong sides.

This is but one reason that my trend of thought is, "The more - the merrier!" More experienced opinions would lead me to believe grades would be much more accurate this way than left to one new grader afraid to make a mistake.

Break time...be back shortly. If you would like to contribute, please, by all means..............Thanks

morgannut2

Boom---The cost of submission may still dictate the color of tray. But, that's just to let graders know they need to finish these items ahead of others and give the return speed they paid for. After grading 2000 quarters a day with someone looking over your back, I think you'd agree, we'd not view ourselves as inexperienced...just eyesore..even if we just started! I know they could care less who paid or what they paid. I just sold 52 Washingtons ('32-'64), keeping 8 toners in MS66-7 PCGS, at Heritage. This is my opinion only, but I feel there is a wider difference in grading by the major services for Washingtons than any other common series except old gold and copper. Next you may be disappointed in your raw "'67's" because PCGS just does not tolerate ANY marks in the key focal areas or poor strike on a '67. They are very careful with double dies or coins older than the '42s, just due to the liability if nothing else. A 1936D is 10 to 15 thousand dollars in MS67 (and $3000 in '66), so they really do look. I was very disappointed when it was so hard to get high end MS66 coins that next step. Just a tiny mark you don't see can do it. I'd send in 16 coins in that you think are 67's with a couple of PCGS 65 and PCGS67 crack outs that aren't worth mixed in to see if your concerns are justified. Try economy.

robertpr

I agree. Send the whole thing in via Economy and see what happens. The more you analyze this the less sleep you'll get so, just do it.

And no I don't think the service level affects your grade. Some of my biggest scores have been on my cheapest submissions.

Boom

I appreciate the input, I really do. I have some very nice PCGS 67s in "The Southern Cross" and I am properly set up to see every nuance of any given coin. I just returned a 1937 PCGS 67 to a major dealer that had a huge hole in George's nose. I have no idea how that transpired. It was as big as an extra nostril.

What makes it past me and multiple magnification under dual lamps with 100 Watt Reveal bulbs must next undergo the dreaded "Scanner test"! Magnified 200%-300%-400%, set on High sharpness and 1200 resolution, nothing escapes undetected. You will see things that you cannot see with a loupe!

I've seen 67s and wondered how they made the grade and by the same token have seen impeccable coins grade as low as 65, This really stresses me as I thoroughly examine a coin, first for eye appeal and completeness of luster. I always remember to start at the 3rd side and work inward then back out.

Your advice is very sound and taking it as truth I have seen 67s that ought not be and just the opposite...impeccable coins with absolutely no marks, tics, dings, hits etc- no breaks in luster.... just set it/ them down, walk away, return and re-examine these coins over and over and am convinced and if it were possible I could prove that the 67 "hangup" is real too. I mean, why draw the line at 67 on a superior coin?

morgannut2

Boom- You,ve jumped from how many coins to submit, to a concern with comparisons of each coin. First one tends to see a lot of low end for the grade/unattractive coins at shows. Nobody wants them. So beginners are struck at first by a lot of extreem examples all in one place at the same time. There's a lot of raw dipped-out cleaned stuff around too that won't ever see a MS64 holder but the dealers are happy to sell them to anyone for cheap (often they came in albums or mixed lots with nice other coins). As far as comparisons, each date and mint mark has it's own characteristics so you can't just line up different coins unless its apples- to- apples. Hence, there's a big difference between an MS65 1932D and a later date-mint mark with lots of MS67-8 examples in the entire Washington Series. It takes people with experience looking at a lot of the SAME date/mint to grade. I've never bought a raw Washington unless it was circulated. I've just always assumed if it was raw, there was a good reason the dealer didn't have it certified, unless it was in mint packaging. I sincerely would send in a group of ten or twenty so you can learn from the experience. I had lots of fun with mine but it takes a while to pickup the grading and you'll pay a ton less for the mistakes than most other coins. Send 'em in!

FrattLaw

The two times I was given tours of the grading process at PCGS, the graders DID know the service level at which coins were submitted... because coins in each service level were sent to the Grading Room in a specific colored plastic tray.

How shocking??? (said in my most sarcastic voice) Taking DennisH at face value and assuming he is telling the truth, this doesn't bother anyone?

If they know the service level, which appears plausible, why not whom submitted the coin?

Michael

morgannut2

Frattlaw- THE DennisH observation I found shocking. I've heard about it but not seen it. The context was how they got rush orders done on time. No matter how innocently intended the practice, we're talking tens of thousands of dollars here and human frailty. And young graders looking at coins that are right at the edge anyway when crackout guys send them in. Between personal animosity to some, and respect for others boardering on worship, that is not a healthy situation if it still exists. Plus, if you HAD to get out X colored box by five would you even bother to look carefully at the NGC coins Joe Blow sent in for his registry set. NOT GOOD.

Boom

I'm all ears. It has always been my nature to want to know "why"! When I was learning to play drums I learned from all the best, soaking up all they had to offer. Being a Virgo, a perfectionist by nature, is a double edged sword!

The same trend holds true when it comes to my coins. I've already established the fact that I have a good eye. It means a lot when your peers and even certain personell at PCGS compliment you in that regard. Having two PCGS 63 1932-Ds regrade to PCGS 64 was a fantastic accomplishment for me. Point is, I tend to ask a lot of questions from the best. One is manofcoins, a VERY amicable person and the other , Mr. Bob Zurick. (Bob Zap) When they give me lessons believe me I pay attention.

Being a perfectionist, I know no other way than to give whatever the task is my very best! I realize that we do not compare apples to oranges. Like best of breed, we compare like unto like. I could show you every coin in my collection and you would see immediately, what kind of eye I have. I am no braggart either. The last thing I want or need is egg on my face. Au contraire, I am very purposeful and methodical. I am harder on myself than other people...always have been.

I am also, very much, a realist. If I have a coin that's a 65 I sure wouldn't cry that it's a 67. From the time I am alert when I rise until I just can't go anymore I will continually be studying....studying pictures of 67s, examining mine and taking in the "properties"/ what it takes, to make a PCGS 67 Washington Quarter.. I've been submitting to PCGS for close to 5 years now and have become accustomed to the PCGS way, however I realize that the graders work their tails off and sometimes just make good, old fashioned, honest mistakes

BTW, I seem to have strayed OT. The topic was supposed to be regarding muliple ways to submit many different coins in a cost effective manner but in such a way so as to maximize my chances at higher grades.