Thought on the "dealers leaving early" topic
Robgetty
Posts: 1,112
Here is a question. There has been a lot of discussion on dealers leaving shows early, and
the collectors showing up Sunday and finding half of the dealers gone.
Instead of running coin shows on Thursday - Sunday (or Wednesday - Sunday, or Fri- Sun),
why not start a 4 day coin show on Saturday and run it through Tuesday? All of the collectors
get to go to the show over the weekend, and if people decide to leave early, then it will
only impact dealer to dealer transactions.
If people's responses are that no one would want to stay for the Monday, Tuesday, etc, then
maybe the shows don't really need to be 4-5 days. By starting on Saturday, more people will
be able to attend and more dealers will be available.
the collectors showing up Sunday and finding half of the dealers gone.
Instead of running coin shows on Thursday - Sunday (or Wednesday - Sunday, or Fri- Sun),
why not start a 4 day coin show on Saturday and run it through Tuesday? All of the collectors
get to go to the show over the weekend, and if people decide to leave early, then it will
only impact dealer to dealer transactions.
If people's responses are that no one would want to stay for the Monday, Tuesday, etc, then
maybe the shows don't really need to be 4-5 days. By starting on Saturday, more people will
be able to attend and more dealers will be available.
Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
0
Comments
Mike
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I used to work tradeshows as part of my job as a national product manager a number of years ago. Travel comes with the territory. It is NOT a surprise. If you dont like it, GET OUT and quit crying. I dont want to hear about it anymore. That major shows are on the weekend is nothing new. Either cut a deal for more time off or get a different job if you cant hack the schedule. I used to have to stand all weekend at trade shows, none of this sitting behind a table and eating, drinking, reading the paper..etc. You dont have it all that hard.
It is not like someone changed the rules last week and now you are away from home. Coin dealing is either entrepruenuism or working for a larger firm. Either way, you have a choice what you do. There are other people in the same situation and they either cope or change. If it is all that hard, you need to think about what you are doing for a living.
Coin dealing is a business. Show promoters need to start thinking of it as such.
<< <i>All of the larger shows are too long as it is. Two days is all that is really needed. Friday/Saturday would be best. >>
Exactly. Nobody likes working Sunday -- so just bag it. Have the show end Saturday. That gives the dealers all of Sunday to pack up and head home, and be ready to open their retail shop Monday morning.
Hmmm. Let's modify that just a bit ok:
I get really tired of hearing people whine about coin dealers leaving on the weekend because of how awful it is to be away from home for so long. You knew this when you decided to attend the coin show on the weekend, it is not a new thing. Get over it.
Ahhh - just as good as before, but from the other point of view....
Uhm - there's like 40 shows a year. Where's the days off?
<< <i>Either way, you have a choice what you do >>
DeepCoin - among those choices, dealers should have the right to leave the show whenever they want, so long as that is not against restrictions/rules imposed by the show promoter and bourse agreement.
Their business might suffer as a result and some show attendees might be disappointed, but dealers should have the right to leave early, just as attendees have the right to arrive late.
Ken
<< <i>Uhm - there's like 40 shows a year. Where's the days off? >>
Most dealers are in business for themselves. They can take a day off whenever they want. Of course, they won't be selling much on their days' off, but that just comes with the territory.
<< <i>From what I have seen at shows and have read on this subject, there appears to be no surefire remedy to the problem that would please everyone or even a majority. >>
BINGO - we have a winner!
<< <i>
<< <i>Either way, you have a choice what you do >>
DeepCoin - among those choices, dealers should have the right to leave the show whenever they want, so long as that is not against restrictions/rules imposed by the show promoter and bourse agreement.
Their business might suffer as a result and some show attendees might be disappointed, but dealers should have the right to leave early, just as attendees have the right to arrive late. >>
Coinguy:
I am not a dealer and therefore have never read a contract for a coin show like you probably have. But I would assume that if a coin show is advertised to be through Sunday at 4:00pm, that the bourse floor contract probably states something to the fact that dealers must not tear down until 4:00pm. Please correct me if I am wrong. As a collector, if I see a show advertised as running through Sunday at 4:00pm, I should be able to arrive on Sunday at 12:00pm and see dealers, not a bunch of empty tables. If dealers want to leave early, don't bother booking a table. Bring your goods and walk the show and see the other dealers. That way, the collectors can see that there aren't many tables booked and no one will show up for the show and the collector base won't spend their money.
<< <i> But I would assume that if a coin show is advertised to be through Sunday at 4:00pm, that the bourse floor contract probably states something to the fact that dealers must not tear down until 4:00pm. Please correct me if I am wrong >>
Tmot99, most bourse application contracts do NOT contain such provisions, though some do.
<< <i>As a collector, if I see a show advertised as running through Sunday at 4:00pm, I should be able to arrive on Sunday at 12:00pm and see dealers, not a bunch of empty tables >>
Ideally, that would be the case, but the reality is otherwise. These days, most collectors are aware that if they show up late Saturday or Sunday at a show, many dealers will have already left.
Please don't get me wrong - I am sympathetic to the collector side of this very difficult and emotion-charged topic. But, I am also empathetic to the dealer side of it.
I wish more people (dealers and non-dealers) were more understanding of the other "side".
Just because dealers leave early at most shows doesn't mean it is right. I think it really amounts that this hobby is becoming a hobby among dealers and who cares about the average collector.
The unfortunate reality is that the volume of business conducted on a Sunday at FUN or ANA, or on a Saturday at Long Beach, rarely if ever justifies the expense of staying an extra day. I sympathize with the collector who attends a major show hoping to see rare and exotic coins, and instead sees a bunch of messy vacant tables. On the other hand, I'm always sitting there on a Sunday or Saturday, waiting for late-arriving collectors to talk to me (and maybe buy a coin or offer me something for sale), but it just doesn't happen.
On Sunday at the Philadelphia ANA in 2000, I read John McPhee's Survival of the Bark Canoe. The entire book! If dealers are expected to stay on Saturday and Sunday at major shows, all I ask is that someone come over to my table. Please. I'll be there.
<< <i>The unfortunate reality is that the volume of business conducted on a Sunday at FUN or ANA, or on a Saturday at Long Beach, rarely if ever justifies the expense of staying an extra day. >>
Seems kinda chicken-and-egg to me. I'm sure some of the people who don't show up on Sunday *would* show up if they didn't think 75% of the dealers would be gone already.
However, Mike's reply is very applicable to me, even though I am single. It is nice to be able to wake up on a sunday and go to a worship service of my own choosing. And, it is nice to be able to spend time with friends and family after a week on the road...Yes, I chose my career and I love it, but it shouldn't come at the cost of personal relationships away from work.
The simple reality is that contracts are meant to be broken. If a signatory is unhappy with the contract, then that signatory is always going to try to adjust the contract or break it altogether. If you don't like something, then try to change it until you do like it. That's the way it's always been, it is now, and always will be.
In this country, isn't the divorce rate something like 50%? Sign a pre-nup, try to break it? Nearly everyone has tried to break (or, change) a contract in his or her life.
To all those who say "suck it up, I have a tough life too"... Try to change it. Don't suffer in silence. One option of trying to better your lot is to leave that job altogether. Another is to try to change that job into something more acceptable to your needs.
IMO, it is totally laughable that anyone should, as a default measure, just suck it up. Sure, circumstances will vary on this. But, in general, we should always strive to improve our lot.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I'm a collector on the east coast, and I've never been to a major coin show/auction. That's right.. never, not once. So had I decided, perhaps to attend the Baltimore coin show this winter, and not known any better, I may have decided to go down on a Sunday. This would involve a 6+ hr drive or an overnight train to go down for the full day. Now I've learned that it makes no sense for me to go on Sunday, but instead I'll have to go Saturday if I want the chance of actually finding some dealers still around.......
So the issue becomes then, if the dealers stuck around on Sundays, wouldn't eventually enough new collectors who are niave about larger coin shows begin to show up on Sundays? Now that I know better, and will never attend a major multi-day show on the last day. With this mentality for someone who's never been to a major show, how can one expect to build attendance and meaningful patronage on the final day of a show?
We're all human, and I can sincerely sympathize with the difficulty in being a dealer and the time away from the family. Heck, I've had to go long periods of time abroad leaving behind my friends and family, so believe me, I know what it's like! The show schedule is brutal, and y'all want to get some rest, see the kids, spouse, etc. but this problem won't go away if newer collectors are taught to avoid the last day of the show. OK, I admit, I'm not looking to spend 5 figures on a coin. The dough I lay down isn't going to break the bank and make ABC Coin company feel that my purchase was worth it to be there that extra day. If enough people who actually want to purchase start to show up on the last day, eventually it will be worthwhile. But building patronage takes time, and there is no quick fix.
Ever been to a flea market? They're kinda the same way in this aspect. Go to a flea market, and if the vendors aren't making a killing, or if the weather is too nice, and patronage is light, they're packing up by lunch-time! I'm not trying to put down you dealers, because you folks are a MUCH more professional lot than these weekend flea market guys, but everytime I read this type of thread, I can't help but think about it.
Anyways, just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. The next multi-day show I'm going to is a regional show with a small auction. I plan to go on Friday, moreso due to the fact that I'll probably be out of town on the weekend. And I am going to a show on a Sunday... but that's only because it's a one-day event!
<< <i>I think it really amounts that this hobby is becoming a hobby among dealers and who cares about the average collector. >>
BINGO, And we have another winner.
Bottom line IMO..... Collectors such as myself and I'm sure many others aren't even bothering to go to shows on Saturday, let alone Sunday.
I'm not going to place the blame on Dealers (anymore) or collectors. It's a sellers market (more or less) and they can and will do what they please. Matter fact, I'm not going to even travel to a show anymore, it's just not worth it and I'm sure I'm not alone on this.
It's getting to where many dealers don't even set up anymore. I know why and that's fine. I will drive 2 hours for a show, and no more flying to one farther away. BTW, I'm not looking for an argument but had to finally say something. I will say it seems the dealers don't want to deal with the public anymore. Unless it's a quick email, and shoot a coin out to you. And that's cool too. Now will myself and many other collectors remember who these dealers are if the tides change? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.
It's just a "Virtual World" folks.
Maybe the whole concept of a coin show as we know it today will die... Remember when Heritage sponsored that "virtual" show, with limited public attendance?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Bingo! and we have yet another winnner.
Why schlep to coin shows at all? Yes, to meet with other collectors, see exhibits, and shop for coins... but we can do all that on line now, can't we?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes, I think this is the problem -- one of expectation. If you knew ahead of time exactly what to expect, then I think people won't be disappointed.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
For the dealers who say that they want to be home with their families, I respect that. Then don't do every show with a table, or as I mentioned before, bring your coins that you want to sell to the other tables and walk the show. Don't make a promise to the attendees and the show promoter to be there and then leave early.
I don't think shows will go away until you can really rotate a coin under a light and get those images out to the Internet. Photos are nice but I still need to see the coin in person.
Also it is much quicker to go through a box of slabs in person and make a thumbs up/down decision than on a computer (unless you are looking for specific dates - then the computer is better).
So, until the market is perfectly efficient (every coin for sale is listed on ONE internet site and the coins are imaged from every conceivable angle and under varying lighting conditions) I think we will still have big shows.
It won't happen for quite a few years think. The best sites today are still a ways away from what I am talking about.
<< <i>Maybe the whole concept of a coin show as we know it today will die... >>
Well, I believe coin shows as we know it have already been going down hill. After every show, it is obvious on this board IMO.
The Internet is a good thing, but it is also a bad thing as well. I still enjoy the hobby though!!! Even If it's just to give y'all a bad time, then so be it.
<< <i>I don't know if any of the collectors here know this, but many of the dealers do not transport their coins themselves, but use Fed X. The cut off for shipping is sometimes around noon on Sat. so the dealer has to have his/her coins packed up and ready to ship back home at that time. So, many of the dealers don't even have coins to show. This is beyond their control, not some evil plan to sneak out of the show early. >>
I would certainly attend more coin shows on Sunday afternoon if I thought there would be more dealers there. But, I understand the rules of the game and either go on Friday or not at all.
Take care all.
Jerry
Beat me to it except I will make a judgement. I certainly would not want to deal with a person who's word (contract) is not his bond.
That's why contracts exist, to state what each side will do and what penalties there will be if either side does not comply with the contract.
Joe.
Yeah, very bad choice of wording on my part... What I'm really trying to get across is the sentiment that in the real world people don't generally resign themselves to an unpleasant situation. In the real world, people are always striving to improve their lot.
Let's remember that this is in the context of dealers who "whine" about their travel situation and grueling schedule. People say that dealers chose their vocation, and should deal with the hassles. But, the issue is ... why shouldn't dealers be allowed to remain dealers *and* try to improve their situation? Remove the word "dealer" and replace it with any other profession. Let's talk about public school teachers. Should they shut the heck up about their being poorly paid, or should they fight to get more money? In this case, of course, society deems teachers more important than coin dealers and will support teachers more. But, even w/o society's support, should they not complain?
As for my poor word choice in a previous post in this thread... please try to remember that I don't have a publicist or lawyer review my posts. Sometimes, specific words or sentences will seem "off". I would ask that you try to ascertain the intent of my entire message rather than to pick apart each little bit looking for mistakes big and small. As for doing business with Legend -- that is up to you. No dealer will beg you for your biz. As you decide which dealer gets your business, you may want to ask actual clients of that dealer to see how ethical they actually are.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Thanks for the clarification about the poor choice of words. I believe your clarification and agree with the "jist" of what you are saying about folks can make choices to change their situation.
Take care and thanks for posting to the boards.
Mark
<< <i>Exactly. Nobody likes working Sunday -- so just bag it. Have the show end Saturday. That gives the dealers all of Sunday to pack up and head home, and be ready to open their retail shop Monday morning. >>
And the dealers start leaving Friday night, the show is half empty by 1 PM Saturday afternoon. Yes, I've seen it happen. Unfortunately there is no good answer.