Rare? Bust Half sells on Teletrade
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
Last week one of the very hard coins to find in a good grade sold on Teletrade with little fanfare. Like many of the Bust Half series this coin was only rated as an R2 by Overton, but in higher grades very few seemed to have survived. This coin, an 1806 Knob 6 Large Stars O-105 was certified by NGC as an AU 53, and was their top pop coin in this variety. Both NGC and PCGS have certified only 4 of these coins in AU and non higher. In doing a little research I looked at all the Registry sets in both NGC and PCGS in the 1794-1839 category. Only 2 sets have an 1806 Knob 6, The Highland Set that owns an XF 40 and the Alderman set that owns a VF 25. The Legend set was locked from view so perhaps Laura is selling, or changing her set, if indeed this is her set. Even though I understand that many Bust Half collectors collect raw coins, the total sent into both NGC and PCGS that have been certified in nearly 20 years is only 41 coins. 13 have been certified by NGC and 34 by PCGS, 24 of the PCGS coins are VG-VF.
From a recent email I received from a BHNC member there are approximately 100 active members in that club. This is indeed another tough coin for us collectors of this series to acquire.
Please post yours.
0
Comments
42/92
not in the best shape but a decent cherry for 200 bones, plus she has a nice smile
The knob 6/no stem through claw is also very tough, NGC has only seen one of those,
doesn't mean there aren't half a dozen out there..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
42/92
One other thing to add to this, Heritage has sold 9 of these coins in both the O-105 and O-106 in 4 and one half years, and some of these were duplicate sales.
O.101
I agree with you guys, lots of early halves (and dimes, and quarters.. etc.) remain unattributed
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
42/92
Who knows how many times many of these at both companies have been re-submitted, several I would suppose due to the low grades?
most remain raw, bust collectors being what they are..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
most remain raw, bust collectors being what they are.”
Baley,
I will have to disagree on the potentials of the pop reports not containing resubmissions.
This coin is a condition census 4 coin. From what I understand there are rumors that there are 2 coins
Of the Knob 6 with stem variety above AU, but who knows if these have been cleaned which is the case on a large part of this series.
I can certainly understand why most collectors in this series collect Raw as it is difficult enough to build this set in a Raw state without adding a difficulty factor of 10 by collecting certified coins. It appears to me that the both NGC and PCGS give very little slack in this area. Many coins with original chips, off center strikes,
Rim defects, etc. seem to be rejected by them off hand. Since Ebay is a little more transparent than auction houses they are a good place to look to do comparisons. On any given day there are 400 to 600 Bust halves offered on Ebay and the number of Raw coins compared to certified NGC and PCGS combined is 10 to 1 in favor of Raw. In addition certified coins from the top two sell for an average of double that of raw.
This particular coin sells in a price range of $3,000 to $4,000 and if a MS coin were certified and brought to market I would think that the price might exceed $10,000.
It also remains my contention that collectors like Dale, and others, that are putting together very high grade sets of certified Bust halves have a monumental task, even though he, and they, remain silent on that issue.
Perhaps one of you would like to take the Pepsi challenge here as our member did this week on the Barber half set? Copy the NGC registry set of Bust Half coins, and go out and find a complete NGC/PCGS set for sale in AU to MS 67 that could currently be purchased regardless of price.
Please keep track of the prices so we can see just what it would cost.
Once again, you seem to be missing the point. The fact that PCGS/NGC coins on eBay are outnumbered 10 to 1 by raw is not a function of your ASSUMPTION that most bust halves cannot be slabbed. It is only a function of the FACT that most of the bust coins sold on eBay could not be slabbed. The reality is that most high-grade raw busts can be slabbed...their owners simply choose not to.
To show this I am willing to match you on your challenge. For any properly graded slabbed AU-MS bust you can find currently for sale in inventory, I will show you at least 1 properly graded raw in the same general grade range that would be slabbable if sent in.
Jim
also, the enormous majority of bust halves have (thankfully) not been slabed. you may be underestimating the influence of that fact considerably.
K S
a couple of cases in point:
An 1801 auction
An 1802 auction
both went for quite a bit more than I expected (or was willing to pay)
I personally don't know too much about "AU to MS67" draped bust halves because I tend to collect them by die variety in grades like VG, Fine, and VF. I also don't care too much if it would "slab" (especially if it's a rare variety) but of course prefer coins without serious problems, as would most, I guess.
I would be interested to hear how collectors of condition-census db halves are doing, as far as finding the coins they're looking for, and how much they're having to pay. But I don't expect to hear much, "bust collectors being what they are.."
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
O.K. Jim,
Since you know I have only been collecting this series for 9 months help out here with my delima.
I think that we know that most collectors that collect this series collect raw, but few would disagree that the certified coins bring substantily higher prices, does that not seem odd to you if the majority of collectors will buy Raw as easy as slabbed?
Second since it has been reported several times here that most dealers send Bust halves into be certified before sale, why do you think that is if what is preferred is Raw coins?
Third, if it is in fact true that most Bust half collectors prefer RAW coins then why are the big auction houses selling 9 to 1 certified coins?
Lastly, since the top two certifiers have been certifying these coins for 20 years with dealers, auction houses, as well as collectors sending them in, where are all the cerified coins? Where they truly certified or Bagged. If your answer is that almost all collectors crack them out to put in books why would they do that when they know how fickle the certifiers are on these coins, and the value is much higher when certified.
“To show this I am willing to match you on your challenge. For any slabbed AU-MS bust you can find currently for sale in inventory, I will show you at least 1 properly graded raw in the same general grade range that would be slabbable if sent in.”
O.K. Jim since we are talking about these 1806 Knob 6 coins lets stick to that.
If you look at the post you replied to this morning from stman on the proof Bust you will see that coin is for sale at PNI. If you go to their other listing you will see by they have one of the 3 PCGS Au coins for sale, see listing below . Please post your Raw example
Welcome to Premium Numismatics, Inc.
1806 Knob 6 50c NGC AU55 $3,400
This piece is probably #3 in the condition census.
Baley,
This is what seems strange to me. You make the statement above, and then you spend a huge amount of time and trouble having your new 1807 certified. When you and most others in the BHNC knew it was a new marriage why did you do that?
actually, it was very easy to get it certified: fill out form, hand over coin, and wait.
what took the huge amount of time and trouble was proving that it was a new obverse die
(and even that was a labor of love for those involved).
but as to why certify it at all, you're absolutely correct: it makes it more liquid, more readily saleable, to have a neutral third party opinion as to what the coin is (even if there is not intent to sell it anytime soon). I have no doubt at all that the coin will get cracked out of that "discovery" holder someday.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Has the John Reich Society or the Bust half Nuts ever done a survey of Early and Capped Bust halves, like Perkins has done on Early dollars?
Someone in this thread has indicated that there are as many or more high grade halves in collections that are raw vs. slabbed by NGC/PCGS. That would be an interesting survey, and would tell us, and many others who would like to know, the actual pops of this great series(as close as possible).
We actually know there are 7 1817/4 halves. How many Ugly 3 1823's are there? And 1807 sm stars? Steve Herrman's Auction results helps, but a survey would be fantastic!
I'd be very interested in the same info for the pre-turbs.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
also, the 1803 is underrated.
again, that's for NICE coins. 01 & 02 in crummy condition, buy 'em at full trends.
i have done VERY WELL with these coins over the years ......
K S
<< <i>O.K. Jim,
Since you know I have only been collecting this series for 9 months help out here with my delima.
I think that we know that most collectors that collect this series collect raw, but few would disagree that the certified coins bring substantily higher prices, does that not seem odd to you if the majority of collectors will buy Raw as easy as slabbed?
Second since it has been reported several times here that most dealers send Bust halves into be certified before sale, why do you think that is if what is preferred is Raw coins?
Third, if it is in fact true that most Bust half collectors prefer RAW coins then why are the big auction houses selling 9 to 1 certified coins?
Lastly, since the top two certifiers have been certifying these coins for 20 years with dealers, auction houses, as well as collectors sending them in, where are all the cerified coins? Where they truly certified or Bagged. If your answer is that almost all collectors crack them out to put in books why would they do that when they know how fickle the certifiers are on these coins, and the value is much higher when certified.
“To show this I am willing to match you on your challenge. For any slabbed AU-MS bust you can find currently for sale in inventory, I will show you at least 1 properly graded raw in the same general grade range that would be slabbable if sent in.”
O.K. Jim since we are talking about these 1806 Knob 6 coins lets stick to that.
If you look at the post you replied to this morning from stman on the proof Bust you will see that coin is for sale at PNI. If you go to their other listing you will see by they have one of the 3 PCGS Au coins for sale, see listing below . Please post your Raw example
Welcome to Premium Numismatics, Inc.
1806 Knob 6 50c NGC AU55 $3,400
This piece is probably #3 in the condition census. >>
Ok, I made my brag, now I will eat a little crow. Currently, I can find no raw AU or better 1806 knobed 6 located in an on-line inventory. The closest I can come is a cleaned one currently on eBay. Although cleaned and hairlined, it would grade at either NGC or PCGS at least based on the other cleaned and/or damaged bust coins I have seen in their holders.
link
Jim
Did the survey include slabbed vs raw? or just the grade and variety?
Thanks
The 1806 O.105 (knobbed 6, large stars) is a difficult variety in XF and AU, and is unknown in MS. I believe there are no more than 6 or 7 in true AU grades. A retailer had one in NGC AU53, I saw the coin at the Portland ANA, it looked EF45. The Teletrade example (a different NGC AU53) did not sell at the last ANR auction. I have an NGC EF45, accurately graded IMO with luster, but the coin is not attributed by NGC so it will not show up in the pops or NGC registry. Beware of retailers and auction firms claim of condition census, the CC's in Overton 3rd need updating.
I have yet to submit a coin for 3p grading, but the slabs I do own protect the coins from scratches when I fall asleep in the recliner after a couple of beers and the coins fall into the cushion springs. Actually, I have put some of my slabbed coins on the NGC 1794-1807 half Registry "Woodinville". I own all of the Redbook varieties except the 1806 knobbed six no stem (7 known) and the small eagles, but I focus on the die marriages, owning over 70 of the 106 known preturb 1794-1807 varieties.
Preturban half dollars are becoming more popular, price increases validate this.
TahoeDale - new rarity ratings will be published in the next JRJ, the preturbs have many changes. The people tracking auction records for over 20 years, census reports, and knowledgeable long-time collectors have provided data to develop very accurate rarity ratings. Individual coins are hard to track once a variety becomes R.5 or more.
Baley - your coin looks great in a slab, after all, how many people here own a slab with DISCOVERY COIN on it?
edit - the JRJ census reports include both raw and slabbed, but more are raw. Most, I believe, are accurately graded.
Bill
Too bad the NGC submission form didn't have a tracking number just 159 higher;
then the ID number on the slab would have been
1807115-001
that would have been kind of neat, maybe I can track down that form, and resubmit
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Baley,
Did the survey include slabbed vs raw? or just the grade and variety?
Thanks >>
Just Grade and Variety... I hold the Census in my hand as we speak...
42/92
Hey Jim,
This is really not fair!! I cannot believe how lucky I was when you posted this. Just as I was going through
the website that Stman had posted, there it was another of these coins certified. A one in a thousand chance
Sorry but the Devil made me do it!
If I had picked anything else I am sure you would have come up with it.
Terry
Bill
The 105 has the re-cut T in Liberty, but the 106 does not.
The 105 has a re-cut Star 10, but the 106 does not.
The 106 coin has a center dot in hair but the dot is not mentioned in the O-105.
So is this a Large Star coin or a Small Star coin? What would the experts here say about my confusion?
Others will have to answer your question, as I don’t have enough expertise to do so, but I can certainly see your point. In looking at the coin I posted for Jims challenge this coin does have the Dot above the curl in the hair but does not have the T doubled. In a similar blow up of the Tommy Lawrence coin that Jim posted that coin has a doubling of the T but not the dot in the hair. Since this is not a marriage difference in the Obverse and Reverse, perhaps this is a new type being neither the O-105, O-105a, or the O-106?
Dale,
Like you I would love to see a report that at least designated those coins that were Raw as compared to Certified.
Baley,
Whether it is true or not, some one posted the other day that one of the Bust half collectors had found another coin like your 1807. To crack your coin out of the slab and lose the Discovery Label would be a pity.
As far as my contention in this thread, and the one I posted last week, that it is many times more difficult to collect this series certified in the top two slabs than Raw, I remain un-swayed in my conviction, even though I have had no others here agree with that position.
It is not that I find anything wrong with collecting Raw coins in this series, in fact I own nearly 50 coins that have been Bagged that remain part of my collection.
As to the other thread this week about PCGS being lenient on early coins I have not found that to be the case at NGC as I have had a 1794,1795/95,1801,1802 bagged for the slightest defects. Perhaps I should submit these to PCGS.
I would also be very interested to learn if anyone has come up with a way to add original patina back to cleaned coins so that they might be certified?
I sincerely thank you all for your input and hope that we can still get an answer to Ladyships question before we close.
Terry
The Obverse of your coin is a match for 1806 Obv 3, used only on O.105. There is a die crack or die line not mentioned in Overton that joins T and Y that I have seen on 105's including mine. The recut S10 matches 105. I would expect the reverse also matches, but you never know! The 105 and 106 actually have a lot of similarities including the strike, the drapery lines are never fully struck and there is weakness in the opposite reverse stars and clouds from lack of metal flow in this area. Also check out the interesting die lines above the date on your 105. Getting familiar with the diagnostic stars will help you with attributions. The bust half series has beautiful designs and intriguing die marriages the make this series fascinating to collect. They are also from the interesting formative years of our country.
Goldsaint - yes, the second 1807 O.115 has been discovered, a bust collector had one misattributed as O.104. It has been sold to another collector.
A Redbook collection of circulated capped bust halves is not difficult to complete, except for 4 or 5 die marriages. It does not make economic sense to slab a $150 circulated bust half, so most collections are raw, and most collectors also want to see the lettered edge.
Bill
NYSOTO
Thanks for your response!
These pictures are the pictures of the coin that GS posted. I simply pulled them down, blew them up and ran them through PSP. Sorry about the colors but sometimes they must be changed in order to show the fine detail, but this is all the same coin as above.
So what you did not address is the point of my real question I suppose. Why does this Large Star 105, that is correct as to the description in Mr. Overton’s book, have this center die dot in the hair that is only supposed to be on the Small Star 106?
I think it is indeed O.105 and looks like a nice example, at that.
Goldsaint, with respect to As far as my contention in this thread, and the one I posted last week, that it is many times more difficult to collect this series certified in the top two slabs than Raw, I remain un-swayed in my conviction, even though I have had no others here agree with that position. I agree with you fully, that is is indeed much more difficult to collect bust halves certified by P and N than it is to collect them raw. It is also difficult to get raw halves properly certified, largely because of strike/die variety issues in grading, but also because of "problems" common to the series. But having agreed with you on that, now what?
Nysoto, you weren't the buyer of the other O.115, were you?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The Overton book does not have complete descriptions and does have some errors, but is still an excellent reference book. They usually include center dots, I don't know why this one was not mentioned on 105. The 1806 O.107 also has a prominent reverse center dot in the breast feathers that was not mentioned because the plate coin was too worn to show it.
I missed the other post, could you provide a link or the title?
Thanks,
Bill
I was not the buyer, I am waiting until O.115 becomes an R.7! I will PM for some details.
<< <i>Baley,
I was not the buyer, I am waiting until O.115 becomes an R.7! I will PM for some details. >>
42/92
- there is quite a bit of difference in the grading standards between PCGS and the other third party grading companies with PCGS being much stricter especially in XF and AU grades.
- PCGS will usually bodybag a coin for rim defects caused by the castaing machine.
- PCGS is inconsistent in the impact that cleaning hairlines have on the grade. Sometimes bodybagged, sometimes not.
- The slabbing of a coin eliminates one of the pleasures of examing a lettered edge coin, namely to observe and study the edge.
- Old original silver is best examined without a veil of plastic.
- Uncleaned and not dipped bust halfs are scarce.
- A great many coins sold as original are not.
- After examining a large number of slabbed AU55 and AU58 halfs, I believe this is an area of a great deal of inconsistency.
- Anyone who sells a bust half worth over $200 on eBay should sell the coin in an ANACS, NGC or ideally a PCGS holder if the coin is nice.
- A net graded ANACS coin will sell for less on eBay than the same coin sold raw.
- A large percentage of bust halfs sold raw on eBay are improperly graded by the seller and yet sell as if they were properly graded.
Baley,
That’s it my Friend, there is no catch 22 in this, and I am not in the business to sell slabs, and have no axe to grind. My point in both of my last two threads was only to give some credit to people like Dale, Highland, Alderman, the owner of the Legend set, and others, that are working to build these certified sets. Yes I am working on one also, but have a long way to go to fall into a class with these other collectors.
As you may have noticed from my past posts I have fallen in the camp with those that believe having a great deal of money to throw at your collection is of great benefit to those that collect various sets. The Bust half set, in my opinion, falls in a little different category, since many coins in various marriages may only exist in VF as a top pop and may not be seen for years at a time.
Only Buffalos,
I agree with nearly everything you said except I have personally found NGC to be just as tough in their grading, in particular when it comes to defects that I believe were caused at the mint.
Again thanks to everyone for your replies.