Having trouble grading $10 Indian Eagles...

Longacre

Does anyone have any side by side pictures of a $10 Indian Eagle (preferably San Francisco) in AU-53, AU-55, AU-58, and MS-60? I know there are just a whisker of difference between those grades, but I am having trouble differentiating between a high AU-55 and a low AU-58. Can anyone assist?

Shamika

Go to Heritage's auction archives. I'm sure you can find what you need there.

dorkkarl

digi-pics will be of poor help to you there. that is a very difficult series to grade, & i doubt the satiny luster, which is critical to liner grades, would show up well in a digi-pic.

K S

coinmickey

I agree with dorkkark here. I like this series a lot and my brief acquaintance with the grading leads me to believe that luster is an extremely important (if not the most important) component. This series is quirky that way. And you cannot determine the luster from a pic. Best to try and see the coins in person at a show.

jom

<< <i>Does anyone have any side by side pictures of a $10 Indian Eagle (preferably San Francisco) in AU-53, AU-55, AU-58, and MS-60? I know there are just a whisker of difference between those grades, but I am having trouble differentiating between a high AU-55 and a low AU-58. Can anyone assist? >>



As some have said it is very difficult to say..and services are usually all over the place with these. It really isn't their fault for the simple reason that is "just the way it is". Why? Well, the problem is that AU58 can represent different kinds of coins. I've seen AU58 be "problem" MS pieces or in some cases for better dates cleaned pieces (lots of hairlines). Other times you see beautiful coins in AU holders that look remarkably like MS pieces but have some rub.

Your statement "whisker" of a difference between an AU58 and MS60 is most of the time not true. In the past if the AU58 grade was given correctly it was usually a FAR nicer peice than a MS60. Nowadays these pieces end up in MS62 holders...due to market grading.

There just isn't any hard and fast rule for this stuff. My suggestion would be to look for QUALITY (PQ) pieces and don't get hung up so much on GRADE. Those are really two different things....

jom

mhammerman

Jom, very nice essay. The grading of the $10 indians is more subjective than it is for like the morgans or barbers or trades or liberty gold from what I have witnessed. There are some very beautiful 58's that I would be quite glad to have over tpg 61's. My collection has multiple examples of 61-63's but my favorite (except one of the 63's) is a 58 that has great luster, an excellent strike and complete devices. If anyone wants to start collecting these dates for the $10 indian, there are 3 you probably won't get but the rest are pretty acquirable (you still need to look for them, they aren't common at all) there are a fair number of exceptionally nice 58's that cost between the $250-$300 range that are very nice coins to look at and hold.

I would say that in looking for the difference in 58's and 60's-61's (and even 62's) that after the technical differences are satisfied, it depends on eye appeal, how the coin preservation is and how devices look and w/the $10, fields and luster are very good tools by which to measure the quality of a piece. The old reliable advice most certainy applies to the $10's in that you should spend as much time looking at everyone of them that you encounter for as long your dealer will let you have so that you can develop your own sense of what the value of one of these indians might be rather than rely on what the grading services tell you they are. I really like this series and there is a lot of history and a lot of stories about how these pieces came to be. Actually, I started collecting another series and just picked one of these $10 indians up because it was a nice looking coin. Then I got another one and began to read about them and study them and now I have a few and am going to pick up an 09 p 62 today...yummmmmmmm. I wish the dealers could teleport coins to your pocket, now that would be cool!

Have fun

jom

Nice write-up, mhammerman.

jom

mirabela

<< <i>there are a fair number of exceptionally nice 58's that cost between the $250-$300 range that are very nice coins to look at and hold. >>



Really? Where? Point me to them! I have only one, a nice original 58 08-D w/m, and paid quite a bit more than that for it and came away feeling like it was a very fair deal. One of my favorite coins, really. At the prices you are talking about I might buy it a few friends.

Another question about these while we're at it -- is it just me, or do most of these not have fully struck feathers on the eagle especially around the shoulder? That's been my impression. Mine is so-so there. I would imagine those with full definition of those details probably fetch a premium. Your thoughts?

Artist

Hello -

My personal favorite series happens to be St. Gaudens $10 Indians, and I am fortunate enough to own two of these very special coins - a 1907 NGC 61, and a 1914-D NGC 63. I think that previous posts made here by numismatists more qualified than I have shared a lot of great insights into grading these coins. However, what I want to point out, is that the coins in this series can also vary greatly in appearance from year to year.

In most books, including the Red Book and Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of US Coins, the 1907 is famously distinguished for not bearing the words "In God We Trust" and that is about all that is said of its uniqueness. (Granted 1908s also come in a 'no motto' varity, but because I am less familiar with 1908s, I am just going to discuss 1907s.) For 1907, not having a motto is only one factor that contributes to it being a very different coin from the later dates in the series. Most notably, 1907s have a deeper relief than other coins - while the devices may not be exaggerated as they are on the MCMVII $20 coins, the design is set noticeably deeper into the surface of the coin. Also, Ms. Liberty's hair is a bit more smooth and stylized, potentially making the tell-tale rub of a 58 harder to discern. Complicating things further, is that 1907s also tend to be somewhat softly struck in the centers, resulting in even smoother hair and a slightly balder eagle. Perhaps as a result of the deeper relief and striking complications, 1907s have a particular look to them - they seem more satiny than later coins. Even though my 1914-D is a few grade points higher, I enjoy and treasure my 1907 equally as much for these unique characteristics.

I bought my 1914-D on Ebay Raw for MS60 money from a "non-coin collector who found it among her recently deceased father's effects." (So sometimes those stories really are true.) When I took it to Long Beach and gave it over to NGC, I was told it should either make 63 or 64, so it is a very nice coin indeed. It came back 63, and I can live with that - I might try I again if I ever decide to sell it, but I can't imagine that ever happening. Anyway, as compared to my 1907, the 1914-D has more fine details. Ms. Liberty's hair is more accented, and the eagle’s feather's are crisp all the way to the top of the wing. The fields are definitely shallower than on my 1907, but the luster and over-all look of the coin is more dazzling. Most higher-grade (55 and above) post-1908 coins I have seen closely possess characteristics like these, albeit to varying degrees.

One thing about my 1914-D, is that the fields are a bit pebbly. From reading descriptions in Heritage's auction records, I have come to infer that gamier surfaces are a frequent attribute of branch mint issues for this series. An exception to this theory, though, is the 1910-D, which a more common date and one commonly encountered with exceptionally good characteristics. One time at a coin show I overheard two dealers discussing the 1910-D, and they were basically in agreement that they tended to come nicer than other Denver coins. There theory, was that by 1910 the Denver Mint was in its third year of operation, and that by then they were organized and experienced enough to really produce great results, and yet still new enough to be overly concerned with the quality of their output. Whether this is true or not, it certainly is romantic to ponder those first years of life at the Denver Mint.

Anyway, my overall point is that in trying to learn the subtleties of grading this series, it may vie well for you to try and spend some time the subtleties of the series itself.

I have shared here some of the distinctions I am aware of - does anyone know of any others?

Artist

Longacre

The coin that I have is a 1915-S in AU-55. I showed it to one dealer who commented on how well struck it was and said it has nice eye appeal. I am thinking of trying to get it upgraded, but I am not sure if it is worth it.

mhammerman

Mirabella, here are a few quick heritage auction numbers just to show you the spread across the grade. This will reveal that it is the coin, not the tpg assignment with these $10 indians. There are many 63's that you would walk away from and 58's that you could spend $500 for just because it is a very nice coin. If you will cruise the Heritage auction archives for 58's you will see that you can spend from $250 to $1200 for an au so it is not like morgans or the highly picked over series. It is subjective and it is about the coin. Enjoy the series and if you have a nice 55 that you like...just enjoy it!

Have fun

Mike



2359 Indian Eagles
1912 $10 AU58 ANACS. Slightly subdued luster, a couple of ... Bullet ANACS AU58 September 13, 2004 $333.50

2369 Indian Eagles
1926 $10 --Scrape on Jaw--ANACS. Unc Details, Net AU58. A ... Bullet ANACS AU58 September 13, 2004 $235.75

7733 Indian Eagles
1907 $10 No Motto AU58 PCGS. Nicely detailed with flowing ... Signature PCGS AU58 September 11, 2004 $891.25

7745 Indian Eagles
1910-D $10 AU58 NGC. Well struck, with deep golden-orange ... Signature NGC AU58 September 11, 2004 $379.50

mhammerman

More for Mirabela...You asked about the eagle's shoulder and this is one of the areas that a weak strike would become evident but more importantly it is the first place that you would expect to see any rub on the reverse other than maybe on the eagle's head. On the obverse, the first rubs come on the hair over her eye and ear. Some of the little things I look for when evaluating strike v.s. wear is the ribbons hanging from the bonnet...if these are well defined then I feel good about the strike but if other items are well struck (see below) and the ribbons are worn then I discount the coin a little. Also, the top of the wing (where you would also expect to see wear) will also show the quality of the strike in that if the feathers are well defined and the color is clean and there are no nicks or dings there, then I feel I have a nice strike and a nice coin. I treat the top and front edge of the eagle's wing just like I do the face of liberty. There are other things to appreciate about the coin in terms of looking at devices. The way "Liberty" was struck in her ribbon/ bonnet will sometimes have a very high level of definition, I find that particularly apealing when it jumps off of the bonnet. I look at the eagles second toe on his rear leg for wear to see if the toe is well defined and it can be easily distinguished from the bundle of arrows, this is a very good thing. Also, while on the arrows, there is a binding band around the arrows on the front and back (behind the leaves) parts of the bundle and I look to see what condition these are in. If they are crisp then I like it and if they are flat and muddy then I notice that too. Also while on the reverse, I sure do like to look at the feathers at the end, on the wing backs. These can be very crisp and very well defined such that the light will spark from them into your eyes, maybe it is just the angle of the engraving but just one of the places I like to look.

The '09 I got today is yummy, all of the above!

Have fun