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AT Experiment on 2 ASEs -- big pics & details

After reading White's book -- Coin Chemistry I became intrigued with how easy it really is AT coins, even coins still in their slabs. (that's the next experiment BTW) He described in detail about toning a raw ASE within 1 hour without using heat, but instead using sulphur compounds. Not being a chemist and not having any of the chemicals he described I wondered if I could do it at room temperture using regular household products.

In White's book he mentions that eggs & onions have high sulphur concentrations, so I decided in place of the chemicals I would use a mixture of eggs and onions to accelerate the toning process.

I chose to use ASEs based upon his comments that they are extremely reactive to sulphur based compounds.

First, I prepared the surface of the ASEs by giving them a quick dip in Jeweluster, neutralized in rubbing alcohol, rinsed in distilled water, washed in tap water, redipped in distilled water, patted dry and then dried again using a compressed air can.
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I then hard boiled 2 eggs, 1 for each experiment. After boiling I added half of a sliced of diced onion, and 25 millileters of distilled water and mashed the compound up.
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The egg/onion/distilled water mix was placed into a small holder and then heated in the microwave for 1:15.

The ASEs were placed into cardboard holders to suspend the coins properly.

Once the toning medium was heated, the holder with the coins and the egg mash were placed into a small glad food storage container immediately.
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Here's pics of the coins before;
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And at 1 hour in the container;
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The 1988 ASE has developed a light golden tone on both the obverse and back within 1 hour. The 2002 ASE has developed some blotching golden toning with blue highlights.

Neither coin is attractive at this point by no means, but it is rather interesting that toning can develop this quickly without actually heating the coin itself.

I'm going to check them after the 2 hour mark. I'll continue to leave them in the plastic containers until they develop more color or stop reacting completely. More than likely because of the sulphur smell I will have to move them to the garage tonight.

I will continue to post pics as the coins continue to tone.

Any thoughts?

Michael

Comments

  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    At this point, my only thought is that the second of those two looks hideous and very obviously AT.
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    At the 2 hour point the color is continuing to deepen. There are now blues and purples developing on the 1988 and color on the 2002 is growing more vibrant.

    After 4 hours I will post a couple more pics.

    Michael
  • TassaTassa Posts: 2,373 ✭✭


    << <i>At this point, my only thought is that the second of those two looks hideous and very obviously AT. >>



    image
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Okay -- this is NOT about how to doctor coins so I can make them pretty and sell them on Ebay or get them into slabs. This is merely an example of how easy it really is and how the color will progress in a very quick rate at room temp.

    Ugly or not, the idea is to learn about toning and its principles.

    Michael
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Ugly or not, the idea is to learn about toning and its principles. >>

    I understand that. I guess what I should have said is, fortunately, this one won't fool anyone with half a brain for spotting AT.
  • Oh those poor, poor SAEs. image
    - -

    Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
  • MrSpudMrSpud Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭
    That's an interesting experiment. Thanks for sharing the results.
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Here's 4 hours -- both are becoming more colorful

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    Michael
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Fun with chemicals. Getting some nice color on them.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • ajiaajia Posts: 5,403 ✭✭✭
    If it wasn't for the blotcheyness(?) it wouldn't be half bad......luckily for us it is not going real well.
    slideriders link tells me others have thought about AT & how to do it......which I think is perfectly normal as long as toned coins bring a premium, NOT to say it is normal to do it, just think about it.
    Give us a progress report in the morning.image
    image
  • Very interesting discussion. Can't wait to see how these look in the morning. (And they already have Fleebay potential.)
    Realtime National Debt Clock:

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  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    fantastic post on this experiment .................

    one of the best educational posts i have seen on here


    the usual ........highly suspect/AT purple color variations from quick purposely induced sulfur toning ...........which are slightly different on 90% silver usa coinage

    michael
  • I only thought of sulfur water because it seemed 'safer' (althought that's relative) to use than things like bleach or ammonia or the many other household products used to tone coins. I thought of it as sort of an 'anti-dip', if you will. Maybe next payday I'll order a bottle and see what it does.
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  • ajiaajia Posts: 5,403 ✭✭✭
    KOOLimage

    Take lots of picks & update often.
    Wonder what would happen if that storage container was floating in a 102 degree spa under the cover?image
    image
  • Fratt, after this leg of the experiment is completed, you should then undertake a market "test." Take the better-looking ASE and put it up on Fleebay, and make it appear like a legitimate auction. Use all the magic buzzwords employed by the hucksters. Let's see what it hammers at.

    This also could turn into a good article for a publication that has the cojones to run it. You could describe each step, with the day and time, culminating with the Fleebay hammer. Your pictures also would be useful. I think it would generate a lot of reader feedback.

    Some initial article titles: "Suspect Silver Eagles"; "Eggs & Onions With Your Bullion?"; "The ABC's of Homemade Sulphur"; "Mixin' Up Some Toning."
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  • I find it hard to believe you have free reign over the kitchen to conduct such experiments! image
  • Looks like tarnish to me
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • Michael,
    You should have over-lapped the coins to give it that "bag toned" look. image

  • I also wonder if this step, "neutralized in rubbing alcohol", might have left something on the coins to cause that splotchy look?
    Doesn't rubbing alcohol have some kind of oil in it ?

    Seems like pure Acetone would have been a better choice ?


  • Those are pretty darn cool. Nice looking coins.image
    Scott Hopkins
    -YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.

    My Ebay!
  • bozboz Posts: 1,405
    Egg-cellent experiment!

    My thought on the blotches, they could also have come from the propellant in the air can. That was the last step and most logical to me.
    The great use of life is to spend it on something that will outlast it--James Truslow Adams
  • Going out a limb here, but I don't think you needed to take a picture of the eggs boiling in a pot. image
    Bill
  • You can get simillar fugly results with wooden matches, some water and a tupperware container. This took a week or so.
    image
  • I also wonder if this step, "neutralized in rubbing alcohol", might have left something on the coins to cause that splotchy look?
    Doesn't rubbing alcohol have some kind of oil in it ?


    Generally speaking, isopropyl alcohol is fine for silver coins (not copper). I've put lots of coins in alcohol to assist with a gentle cleaning, and there are no ill effects.

    I do not believe alcohol has "oil" in it, but the chemistry experts undoubtedly will know a lot more about the particulars of the chemcial ingredients.
    Realtime National Debt Clock:

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  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    After 8 hours I removed the ASEs to stop any further toning. I assumed that if left in the containers overnight the coins would have continued to darken, becoming more black in appearence. So far, while not that attractive, the toning pattern has an envelope toned look to hit. The higher parts of the devices are more blue/purple while the fields are redish/blue. I'm not sure where the splotchiness is coming from. It could be the rinse or possibly the compressed air. I think its the fact that the coins were put into the containers while the eggs/onion mix was still warm and condensation form.

    Overall, while they aren't EBay material as compared to some of the better known doctors it does show that replication can be somewhat easy. The results seem to match those of White in his book except for the fact that I used eggs/onions and it took 8 hours instead of 1 to achieve the same color.

    As for variation in color, at no point in time was the color ever rainbow in appearence and I can assume the chemical make up of the eggs/onions might account for this. I purchased a rudimentary kid's chemistry set and will try other toning experiments with other sulfates to see whether I can affect the color of the toning.

    I also purchased a old rattler PCGS Morgan, a morgan Capitol Plastics holder, a Morgan airtite holder and a 1960 mint set in an aftermarket holder that I'm going to use in order to tone the coins while located in a protective case to show that toning can continue to occur through those devices.

    Michael

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  • Overall, while they aren't EBay material

    You give the Ebay citizens too much credit.
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  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    Now this is an excellent thread. Thanks for sharing your results with us. I found all of this fascinating.
  • robertprrobertpr Posts: 6,862 ✭✭✭
    Yes the splotchiness does look like it may have come from the compressed air, those cans do have moisture and other contaminants within them. I would have let it air dry. The possibility that it was moisture from the onion is also quite plausable. It'll be interesting to see your other results.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    1 question ...... what wattage is your microwave?

    K S
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Interesting! When you get your recipe right maybe they will look like this:

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    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
    <<< Interesting! When you get your recipe right maybe they will look like this: >>>


    You got that right Dog! I've also heard of people simply laying the silver eagles on a fresh piece of new wood in a sealed container and coming up with interesting toning results on them.

  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The hardboiled egg method will change the color of a silver coin pretty darn quick.

    I took a PROOF Washington and Franklin from the 60s, an MS Franklin from the 60s and a 1878 silver dollar.

    Put them in a closed container with a freshly boled egg which I had cut in half.

    In 15 minutes, the coins were a real cool purple color. Not all of them were desireable to look at, but the PROOF Frankie came out pretty nice looking, the purple doesn't scan well unfortunately. Looks great in hand.

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