Any interest in an AFL HOF set ?
Fuzz
Posts: 903
Thinking about proposing the following set for the registry for next year.
AFL HOF set
For inclusion, player would have to:
1) Be a member of the FB HOF.
2) Have at least one card as an AFL player/coach.
For administrative purposes:
1) Use players first AFL card. (ie. George Blanda would be a 60 Fleer and not a 54 Bowman)
2) For multiple issues in same year use higher priced issue in SMR as of 11/04 regardless of how it changes in the future. (ie. Don Maynard would be a 61 Fleer more than likely instead of a 61 Topps).
3) Set would be weighted based on Nov. 04 SMR PSA 8 pricing.
Set should be only about 20 cards and should be pretty straight forward as it has only 1960's cards in it. It will highlight the contribution of the great players to the AFL.
Any interest or comments?
Fuzz
AFL HOF set
For inclusion, player would have to:
1) Be a member of the FB HOF.
2) Have at least one card as an AFL player/coach.
For administrative purposes:
1) Use players first AFL card. (ie. George Blanda would be a 60 Fleer and not a 54 Bowman)
2) For multiple issues in same year use higher priced issue in SMR as of 11/04 regardless of how it changes in the future. (ie. Don Maynard would be a 61 Fleer more than likely instead of a 61 Topps).
3) Set would be weighted based on Nov. 04 SMR PSA 8 pricing.
Set should be only about 20 cards and should be pretty straight forward as it has only 1960's cards in it. It will highlight the contribution of the great players to the AFL.
Any interest or comments?
Fuzz
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
0
Comments
Fuzz - Capital idea ! I LOVE the old AFL cards,
and using their actual AFL rookie cards would be cool.
Better yet, instead of using the same old NFL HOFers,
why not make it an actual American Football League Hall of Fame set.
Offensive stars could include :
Lance Alworth
George Blanda
Gino Cappelletti
Clem Daniels
Len Dawson
Cookie Gilchrist
John Hadl
Abner Haynes
Daryle Lamonica
Paul Lowe
Don Maynard
Joe Namath
Babe Parilli
Art Powell
Lionel Taylor
Plus with some offensive linemen,
and some defensive players, the set should round out at about 30 cards.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I'd also include
Ron Mix
Ernie Ladd
Earl Faison
Keith Lincoln
Jack Kemp
Sid Gillman
Hank Stram
Steve
I believe the sports writers of all the AFL cities got together before the merger or shortly there after and
voted the top players of the decade 1960-69 for the A.F.L.
I know I have seen the ALL AFL Team listed many times in the past.
Just another possible idea or take off of FUZZ's brain child.
Mojorob
Man, you give them an inch ......
Mike
Vintage Football Card Gallery
Cool site!
Mike
Vintage Football Card Gallery
But apparently, this is the guy.
So do we agree to use his list and do we want first team only or first and second team?
Fuzz
Also on another note how about including some of the great afc coaches Fuzz what was that KC GUYS NAME
The good KC coach you must be thinking about is named Dick Vermeil because that is the only one I can think of.
The first and second team both have a coach's position. One is Eubank and the other is Gilliam. Ill have to check on the Eubank but I believe that Gilliam has a 60 Fleer. That Chief's guy didn't make this list.
http://www.conigliofamily.com/AFLAllTimeTeam.htm
Beside if you lived through the after math of his leaving, you wouldn't have liked him either. Trading a series of #1 and #2 picks for aging veterns cost the organization most of the 70's and 80's. And one title doesn't go that far.
So the above list is the proposal on the table.
Let me know and I'll do the card work and get back to you.
Fuzz
PS. AS of now we are only about 1042 posts behind the Nolan Ryan thread.
Steve
I have a hard time following your last post.
Not quite sure what coach are you talking about???
It isn't Hank Stram is it??
For IMHO Stram must be apart of any Hall Of Fame AFL card set.
He won more games than any AFL coach period.
Hank Stram is a must!!
Mojorob
This is the AFL Hall of Fame list from the website :
Players :
Lance Alworth
Houston Antwine
Fred Arbanas
Bobby Bell
Elvin Bethea
Verlon Biggs
Fred Biletnikoff
George Blanda
Willie Brown
Junious (Buck) Buchanan
Ed Budde
Nick Buoniconti
Chris Burford
Ron Burton
George "Butch" Byrd
Billy Cannon
Gino Cappelletti
Larry Csonka
Clem Daniels
Ben Davidson
Len Dawson
Bob Dee
Elbert Dubenion
Jim Dunaway
Speedy Duncan
Larry Eisenhauer
Booker Edgerson
Earl Faison
Miller Farr
Tom Flores
Don Floyd
Larry Garron
Claude "Hoot" Gibson
Cookie Gilchrist
Austin "Goose" Gonsoulin
Larry Grantham
Dave Grayson
Bob Griese
John Hadl
Abner Haynes
Wayne Hawkins
Sherrill Headrick
Charlie Hennigan
Winston Hill
E. J. Holub
Ken Houston
Bobby Hunt
Jim Hunt
Harry Jacobs
Rich Jackson
Bobby Jancik
Charlie Joiner
Jack Kemp
Ernie Ladd
Daryle Lamonica
Willie Lanier
Jacky Lee
Keith Lincoln
Floyd Little
Larry Little
Paul Lowe
Paul Maguire
Bill Mathis
Don Maynard
Jerry Mays
Curtis McClinton
Wahoo McDaniel
Ron McDole
Gene Mingo
Ron Mix
John Morris
Joe Namath
Jim Norton
Jim Nance
Ross O'Hanley
Jim Otto
Vito "Babe" Parilli
Gerry Philbin
Art Powell
Johnny Robinson
Paul Rochester
George Saimes
George Sauer
Tom Sestak
Billy Shaw
Art Shell
O.J. Simpson
Matt Snell
Jan Stenerud
Mike Stratton
Walt Sweeney
Bob Talamini
Lionel Taylor
Otis Taylor
Charlie Tolar
John Tracey
Jim Turner
Jim Tyrer
Gene Upshaw
Ernie Warlick
George Webster
Jerrell Wilson
Ernie Wright
Coaches :
Weeb Ewbank
Sid Gillman
Lou Saban
Hank Stram
I would suggest deleting the following NFL Hall of Famers
that all had their best years AFTER the AFL no longer existed.
And while they may have played a year or two in the AFL,
all fans would consider them stars of the 1970's, so they DO NOT belong in an AFL Hall of Fame :
Elvin Bethea
Larry Csonka
Bob Griese
Ken Houston
Charlie Joiner
Floyd Little
Larry Little
Art Shell
O.J. Simpson
I would further suggest adding the following players that made the all-time AFL 2nd team :
Stew Barber 1961 - 1969 - offensive tackle - all-pro 63,64,65
Dan Conners 1964 - 1974 - middle linebacker - all-pro 67,68,69
Kenny Graham 1964 - 1970 - safety - all-pro 65,66,67,68
Tom Keating 1964 - 1975 - defensive tackle - all-pro 67,68
Dave Kocourek 1960 - 1968 - tight end - all-pro 61,62,63,64
And finally, no AFL Hall of Fame could be complete without :
Fred "The Hammer" Williamson 1961 - 1967 - cornerback - all-pro 61,62,63,64
The guy who made the list must not of enjoyed Fred's performance as
Tommy Gibbs ... aka The Godfather of Harlem in the 1973 movie "Black Caesar" as much as I did.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
and I'm an old AFL FAN!!
Examples: Ron Burton, Bill Mathais, Charlie Tolar etc.
These guy's weren't and aren't H.O.F calibur even in the old A.F.L.
These guy's were barely serviceable players for their respective teams.
As mentioned before in a post, there is a TRUE ALL AFL Team, as voted by the
Sports writer's of that era.
I will try and find it and post it.
This is a far more accurate representation, then some guy with a fantastic AFL web site that lists
basicly every AFL player that played on a regular basis over a five or six year period IMHO.
Way too watered down.
But hey ................what do I know? NOT MUCH!!
Mojorob
I knew that he meant Stram. I didn't like Stram then. I don't now.
What the heck does "matriculating the ball down the field mean" ? I believe that it is an inappropriate use of the mean and doesn't clearly communicate at best.
He traded about 10 years of #1 and #2 draft picks in the last 60's to acquire aging marginal talent so that HE could win. The organization suffered for years after he left from having no draft picks. Maybe OK as an on field coach but I'm not to sure. He had the best talent in the league on both sides of the ball. There were other great players, but not as many in one place. He should have won. As an adminstrator he was awful. If a CEO did what he did, there would be jail time involved. HOF no for his talent, only for his condesending attitude and his ego, the are both big time.
Ever notice that all of the "great Chiefs" seem to come from that team of the late 60's. Hasn't really been another one since though that current RB they have could make it with a few more years. That is not a slam at the Montana's or the Allen's, great players, just more of their years somewhere else.
I gotta go along with Mojo on the size of the set. Is HOF is widely inclusive. Even as a Chiefs fan, some of my boys don't belong. Fred Arbanas ?? Chris Burford ?? EJ Holub ?? That doesn't make any since, That puts both receivers and the tight end from the same team as three of the greats?? Not to mention all three linebackers ?? I think is " AFL HOF bar" may be a little low. That is why I suggested only the first two teams and not all the players. Most of his listings are even listed as commons in SMR. Hard to make a case for an HOF guy that carries no price premium. I vote for the first two teams with coaches only.
Wolfbear,
I hated the Hammer. He was a Raider. If I hated him, he must of been pretty good but you gotta draw the line somewhere. I agree he was better than many on the list. But I'm trying to get rid of them too.
Fuzz
Since Fuzz has come out of hibernation for a brief instance, I will follow through on my promise to provide
the : ALL TIME AFL TEAM which was Chosen by the 1969 AFL Hall Of Fame Selection Committee Members.
Buckle your old AFL chin straps and pull up your 1961 Denver Broncos verticle stripped socks!!
HERE WE GO .............
On Offense:
Lance Alworth Flanker San Diego 1962-69
Don Maynard End New York 1960-69
Fred Arbanas Tight end Dallas/ Kansas City 1962-69
Ron Mix Tackle Los Angeles/ San Diego 1960-69
Jim Tyrer Tackle Dallas/ Kansas City 1961-69
Ed Budde Guard Kansas City 1963-69
Billy Shaw Guard Buffalo 1962-69
Jim Otto Center Oakland 1960-69
Joe Namath Quarterback New York 1965-69
Clem Daniels Runningback Dallas 1960, Oakland 61-67
Paul Lowe Runningback Los Angeles/San Diego 1960-68 Kansas City 69-69
On Defense:
Jerry Mays End Dallas/Kansas City 1961-69
Gerry Philbin End New York 1964-69
Houston Antwine Tackle Boston 1961-69
Tom Sestak Tackle Buffalo 1962-68
Bobby Bell Linebacker Kansas City 1963-69
George Webster Linebacker Houston 1967-69
Nick Buoniconti Linebacker Boston 1962-68,Miami 69
Willie Brown Cornerback Denver 1963-66 Oakland 1967-69
Dave Grayson Cornerback Dallas/Kansas City 61-64, Oakland 65-69
Johnny Robinson Safety Dallas/Kanasa City 1960-69
George Saimes Safety Buffalo 1963-69
Special Teams:
George Blanda Kicker Houston 1960-66, Oakland 67-69
Jerrel Wilson Punter Kansas City 1963-69
There you have it.
I would think any AFL Hall Of Fame set would have to have these deserving players on it.
It is just a matter of how many you want to add on top of these in my mind.
Let's here YOUR THOUGHTS.
Here's to the OLD AMERICAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE.
Cheers!!
Mojorob
The all AFL 1st team and 2nd team added together consists of 50 players.
I kept all of the players from the first team,
and then added and deleted some of players on the 2nd team to keep the set at 50.
1 - Alworth, Lance
2 - Antwine, Houston
3 - Arbanas, Fred
4 - Bell, Bobby
5 - Biletnikoff, Fred
6 - Blanda, George
7 - Brown, Willie
8 - Buchanan, Buck
9 - Budde, Ed
10 - Buoniconti, Nick
11 - Cannon, Billy
12 - Cappelletti, Gino
13 - Daniels, Clem
14 - Davidson, Ben
15 - Dawson, Len
16 - Gilchrist, Cookie
17 - Gonsoulin, Goose
18 - Grantham, Larry
19 - Grayson, Dave
20 - Hadl, John
21 - Haynes, Abner
22 - Hennigan, Charlie
23 - Hill, Winston
24 - Kemp, Jack
25 - Ladd, Ernie
26 - Lamonica, Daryle
27 - Lincoln, Keith
28 - Lowe, Paul
29 - Maynard, Don
30 - Mays, Jerry
31 - McDaniel, Wahoo
32 - Mix, Ron
33 - Namath, Joe
34 - Otto, Jim
35 - Parilli, Babe
36 - Philbin, Gerry
37 - Powell, Art
38 - Robinson, Johnny
39 - Saimes, George
40 - Sestak, Tom
41 - Shaw, Billy
42 - Stratton, Mike
43 - Sweeney, Walt
44 - Talamini, Bob
45 - Taylor, Lionel
46 - Taylor, Otis
47 - Tyrer, Jim
48 - Webster, George
49 - Williamson, Fred
50 - Wilson, Jerrel
I've got a whole bookshelf full of Football books,
and I've been reading through some of them the last few days to come up with this list.
And while there's something to be said for a smaller set,
basically all you end up with is yet another rehash of a portion of the NFL Hall of Fame set.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just that it's already been done.
My list has all the big stars, plus some other interesting and important characters from the old AFL.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Although I am disappointed you left off Speedy Duncan, Earl Faison, Kenny Graham and Ernie Wright
Don't forget also that all teams need a coach, so I propose that the 51st card in the set go to the "Grandfather of the Modern Offense"...Sid Gillman
Now all we have to do is submit it to PSA and wait for them to load it
Steve
You have my vote with one addition.
If you have the first and second team AFL squads you have to have TWO coaches.
You absolutely can not leave out HANK STRAM........YOU JUST CAN'T!!
The guy won not one, not two......BUT THREE AFL CHAMPIONSHIPS.
More than any other AFL Coach.
I believe he also won more games than any AFL head coach.
He was a CELEBRITY back in the late 60's after the Chief's Super Bowl win.
To leave him off this fantastic team would be a travisty, no matter what FUZZ says.
Mojorob
I wanted to bring this post back up to the front.
Between the two of us, we have done some work on this.
Where do we go from here.....to take this to the next level and make this set a reality?
Please advise.
Happy to help some more, if need be.
Just let me know.
Thanks!!
Mojorob
Mojo -
Here's what I've got so far.
The columns represent :
name --- set --- card # of set --- smr in 8 --- weight in set
1 - Alworth, Lance - 63 fleer - # 72 --- $ 325 --- 3.0
2 - Antwine, Houston - 64 topps - # 2 --- $ 15 --- 1.0
3 - Arbanas, Fred - 63 fleer - # 50 --- $ 25 --- 1.0
4 - Bell, Bobby - 64 topps - # 90 --- $ 60 --- 1.5
5 - Biletnikoff, Fred - 65 topps - # 133 --- $ 475 --- 3.0
6 - Blanda, George - 60 fleer - # 58 --- $ 80 --- 1.5
7 - Brown, Willie - 65 topps - # 46 --- $ 145 --- 2.0
8 - Buchanan, Buck - 64 topps - # 92 --- $ 60 --- 1.5
9 - Budde, Ed - 64 topps - # 93 --- $ 15 --- 1.0
10 - Buoniconti, Nick - 63 fleer - # 10 --- $ 135 --- 2.0
11 - Cannon, Billy - 60 fleer - # 66 --- $ 55 --- 1.5
12 - Cappelletti, Gino - 62 fleer - # 3 --- $ 30 --- 1.0
13 - Daniels, Clem - 63 fleer - # 57 --- $ 25 --- 1.0
14 - Davidson, Ben - 65 topps - # 137 --- $ 110 --- 1.5
15 - Dawson, Len - 63 fleer - # 47 --- $ 355 --- 3.0
16 - Gilchrist, Cookie - 63 fleer - # 23 --- $ 90 --- 1.5
17 - Gillman, Sid - 60 fleer - # 7 --- $ 45 --- 1.0
18 - Gonsoulin, Goose - 61 topps - # 192 --- $ 22 --- 1.0
19 - Grantham, Larry - 60 fleer - # 98 --- $ 18 --- 1.0
20 - Grayson, Dave - 64 topps - # 97 --- $ 15 --- 1.0
21 - Hadl, John - 64 topps - # 159 --- $ 85 --- 1.5
22 - Haynes, Abner - 60 fleer - # 73 --- $ 35 --- 1.0
23 - Hennigan, Charlie - 62 fleer - # 48 --- $ 40 --- 1.0
24 - Hill, Winston - 65 topps - # 116 --- $ 55 --- 1.0
25 - Kemp, Jack - 60 fleer - # 124 --- $ 300 --- 3.0
26 - Ladd, Ernie - 62 fleer - # 86 --- $ 40 --- 1.0
27 - Lamonica, Daryle - 64 topps - # 31 --- $ 100 --- 1.5
28 - Lincoln, Keith - 63 fleer - # 70 --- $ 75 --- 1.5
29 - Lowe, Paul - 60 fleer - # 76 --- $ 30 --- 1.0
30 - Maynard, Don - 61 fleer - # 215 --- $ 135 --- 2.0
31 - Mays, Jerry - 62 fleer - # 31 --- $ 28 --- 1.0
32 - McDaniel, Wahoo - 67 topps - # 82 --- $ 85 --- 1.5
33 - Mix, Ron - 60 fleer - # 118 --- $ 75 --- 1.5
34 - Namath, Joe - 65 topps - # 122 --- $ 4000 --- 10.0
35 - Otto, Jim - 61 fleer - # 197 --- $ 90 --- 1.5
36 - Parilli, Babe - 61 topps - # 175 --- $ 22 --- 1.0
37 - Philbin, Gerry - 64 topps - # 123 --- $ 15 --- 1.0
38 - Powell, Art - 61 topps - # 151 --- $ 25 --- 1.0
39 - Robinson, Johnny - 61 fleer - # 202 --- $ 35 --- 1.0
40 - Saimes, George - 64 topps - # 36 --- $ 15 --- 1.0
41 - Sestak, Tom - 63 fleer - # 33 --- $ 18 --- 1.0
42 - Shaw, Billy - 62 fleer - # 16 --- $ 40 --- 1.0
43 - Stram, Hank - 60 fleer - # 116 --- $ 80 --- 1.5
44 - Stratton, Mike - 63 fleer - # 32 --- $ 25 --- 1.0
45 - Sweeney, Walt - 65 topps - # 173 --- $ 90 --- 1.5
46 - Talamini, Bob - 63 fleer - # 39 --- $ 18 --- 1.0
47 - Taylor, Lionel - 61 fleer - # 147 --- $ 35 --- 1.0
48 - Taylor, Otis - 66 topps - # 75 --- $ 65 --- 1.5
49 - Tyrer, Jim - 64 topps - # 108 --- $ 20 --- 1.0
50 - Webster, George - 70 topps - # 120 --- $ 10 --- 1.0
51 - Williamson, Fred - 62 fleer - # 74 --- $ 40 --- 1.0
52 - Wilson, Jerrel - 69 topps - # 252 --- $ 18 --- 1.0
Not sure if I've done the weightings correctly.
With the Namath worth $ 4000, and the next most valuable card worth $ 475, it's kind of tough to figure.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Correction ..........YOU have done a lot of work here!!
Very nice work indeed, I may add.
My hat is off to you.
Don't worry about the weights and the Namath card.
That card is a complete aberation, being probably the number one Football Card in the entire hobby.
So the pricing is just out of wack, with that card.
If you were "sampling", that is one that you would omit.
Everything else in your sample looks great!!
Please proceed and really, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR OUTSTANDING WORK!!
Come on some of you other football guy's, weigh in here, it is time to give the Wolfbear his due.
GREAT JOB!!
Mojorob
Would you like to contact BJ and make the request?
Fuzz