Grading Mint State Copper Coins

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Do you think copper coins should be graded Mint State 67 BROWN ?

I BELIEVE THIS TO BE AN OXY-MORON

Mint State 67 should be reserved for RED and perhaps red/brown coins

I will challenge this fact with any coin graded as ms 67 brown or higher.

Brown coins should not be graded as ms 67 brown

kranky

Toned silver coins can get high grades, wouldn't the same logic apply to copper?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Kranky - The same logic does not apply.There is no color designation for silver coins.

stewart

IvanOnly

Can you give us a reason why Brown Coppers should not be graded 67 or higher?

Like, what is the reasoning behind it?

Edit: Typos

RKKay

If the absense of wear makes a coin mint state, and the near-absense of any marks, combined with great luster/eye appeal makes a coin a 67, why does the color designation have any bearing?

coppercoins

I was going to respond but decided not to, other than to say that I agree that brown coins should not be graded 67.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Charles - I like you.You are a bright guy.

Ivan only and rick kay - For every brown coin 67 and higher and I will state that most I've seen graded have been ENHANCED or ALTERED to make them brighter,glossier or wax like in appearance and IMO most probably fooled the graders.I could state the coins but the owners would get upset at me.The truth is that they know it.

Stewart

RKKay

<< <i>Ivan only and rick kay - For every brown coin 67 and higher and I will state that most I've seen graded have been ENHANCED or ALTERED to make them brighter,glossier or wax like in appearance and IMO most probably fooled the graders.I could state the coins but the owners would get upset at me.The truth is that they know it. >>



Stewart, I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. I think most 67 BNs have been to NCS or have been otherwise "touched up." At the same time, the same can be said for many, many blast white, deep cam silver and nickel coins.

Edited to add: I question whether the graders are fooled, especially when the "work" is done inhouse.

IvanOnly

I understand what you are saying.

I am no expert at copper so I was mainly looking for an explaination.

So, maybe instead of no 67 Browns, maybe it should be a very, very rare grade?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Rick K Kay

The work done on PCGS graded coins is NOT done in-house.The problem is that the coins got these grades and the mechanics that did this work will get more work and RUIN more coins.
NGC is another cup of bananas.It is public information that NCS and NGC are one.enough said

Stewart

sliderider

Copper is more reactive to the environment than silver and gold are. All that lovely (or ugly depending on your perception) toning that you see on silver and gold is caused mostly by the copper alloyed to it. I can see them making a case for the detail being there, even if the coin has discolored, but I still don't consider a copper coin that has turned nearly black to be mint state no matter how much detail it has.

RKKay

Stewart: I agree with this last statement. As for the "in-house" reference, I meant NCS. As for the blue-hued, glossy copper coins, the more I see those, the more I realize $$ is what runs everything, not preservation of rarities. It is much worse with copper than silver and nickel. However, I have handled a few 67BN patterns which (to me) didn't appear to have been doctored. Maybe that's just my learning curve.

Shamika

This is a good question, one that I've struggled with for years.

I've seen some incredibly beautiful brown Lincolns with the most velvety luster one can imagine. One would have a hard time argueing against the eye appeal of these beauties.

However, there is something not right about a brown copper coin grading MS67. I'm really on the fence with this one.

shylock

PCGS agrees with you. According to their pop totals, of the 33,000+ Indian cents they've graded only 1 has ever graded 67BN and only 6 66BN. Of the 127,000+ wheat Lincoln cents only 1 has graded 67BN (I can't find the actual date on the pops) and only 15 66BN.

You'd think 67BN Large cents would be even rarer but there are 5 total including 1 Chain cent, and a 68 and 69BN Wreath cent. This gives you an idea of how much tougher they've been on small cents through the years.

I've been curious about the 67BN IH, an 1893. It's a freak of the pop reports -- there's only 1 65BN from that date and none at 66BN -- and I'd love to see it someday. Since luster is a major component of grading brown coins are handicapped from the start. And when you consider how small flecs and other imperfections stand out on a blast red coin but can be well hidden on a brown copper, I see your point that BN's should have an MS66 ceiling. But isn't it possible for a "freak" brown coin to be so well struck and preserved it deserves a 68+ grade, and gets deducted 1 point to 67 for only moderate underlying luster?

jacktheknife

Very good thread and discussion. I have a slight problem with absolutes, but would agree in general that MS67 and BN designation do not go together.

elwood

I've seen many copper coins with the brown designation that had loads of luster. Just not enough for a R/B designation. If a coin has plenty of luster, even though it's not designated red, it should still get the 67 grade. One of the smoothest, mark free Indians I have ever seen was in a brown 66 holder. I could find absolutey nothing wrong with the coin. But it was brown with little to no luster left.

mgoodm3

I see no reason why a copper coin with near-perfect surfaces shouldn't grade 67BN. It's toning. If silver were graded the same way there would be virtually no older coins that grade 67 that hadn't been dipped.

Baley

good response mgoodm and I agree.

Regardless of the coin alloy, I think an MS67 can be light to medium-light toned as long as there is very full luster. 68 should be only very lightly toned.

69 can have at most the barest trace of toning MS70 can have no toning. All imo, and also depends on how old the coin.

mgoodm3

And that MS69 toned mercury dime of jbsteven's needs to be downgraded to 66.

coppercoins

I'll add only one thing...I have never seen a natural brown copper coin that hasn't been monkeyed with that still has all of its original luster. The oxidation, thus "toning" of the copper, automatically grows a skin over the luster dulling the coin. The only way to make that luster stand back out is to wipe off the oxidation leaving the color and luster behind. They don't look right to me.

elwood

<< <i> The only way to make that luster stand back out is to wipe off the oxidation leaving the color and luster behind. They don't look right to me. >>



Coppercoins
Are you saying that none of the Gem Chains and Wreaths Cents out there don't look right to you? Just curious?

shylock

Elwood - I agree that many original BNs have plenty of beautiful luster, just not all of their original luster. There's a difference between a RB/BN coin whose skin has subdued the luster, giving it that "underlying" glow that often looks blue at angles, and an unnaturally looking shiney brown copper that's been played with. In person this 1864 w L has the type of underlying mint fresh glow you refer to.

I'm not sure you can compare silver and copper toning when it comes to grading. Beside being more prone to spotting, copper tends to tone deeply and completely. A full brown copper hides minute flecs and motled toning that are painfully obvious on a blast red version of the same coin. Maybe that's why PCGS, and Stewart, feel they can't be graded over a certain level.

elwood

Shylock
Nice 64 w/l and a perfect example of what I had in mind. If that coin is technically a 67, then it should be in a 67 holder even if it has a Brown or RB designation.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Elwood - I am saying that most of the very early Large cents grading ms 67 and higher were enhanced.They do look good but were graded at a time when PCGS was still getting their drivers license.
Once a coin is brown oxidation has starting to take place.My personal evaluation is that light brown is more attractrive than dark brown and should be so graded.

Rick KKay -I have never seen a pattern graded 67 brown so I can not comment.I still do believe a brown coin to grade 67 is a mistake in my opinion.

Since we are not talking about silver coins all I will say is dipped,stripped or enhanced silver coins should be penalized in the scheme of grading.A dipped white ms 68 coin is a $@#&amp; mistake.

Stewart

RBinTex

Stewart,

I agree with you as well but based on the pop reports you're pretty much just stating the obvious although your insights into the real story behind the large cents is great info. Of course the possibility for an exception to the rule cannot be TOTALLY excluded. Perhaps at least 1 of the 7 67BN's PCGS has graded is original.

"PCGS agrees with you. According to their pop totals, of the 33,000+ Indian cents they've graded only 1 has ever graded 67BN (an 1893) ... Of the 127,000+ wheat Lincoln cents only 1 has graded 67BN (I can't find the actual date on the pops) ...

...there are 5 (large cents) total including 1 Chain cent, and a 68 and 69BN Wreath cent. This gives you an idea of how much tougher they've been on small cents through the years.

Ok. I'll bite. Anyway my eyes are tired of searching for it. Which Lincoln wheat is a 67BN? I know the pop report totals say there is one but I just looked at all the dates twice & can't find it either.

LincolnCentMan

I respectfully disagree with your stance. Color designation and technical merit should be two separate assesments.

I've probably owned as many top brown cents as anyone. As I understand, you have at least one Eliasberg example in 66BN. Out of all the one's I've owned, I'd have assessed only two as 67BN. One is in a PCGS 65BN holder. The other is a NGC 66BN. Before you blast me on my grading, bn's are my nitch. For the same reason that your 11-D remains in a 66RD holder, those two will probably never be in a 67BN holder.

Just my opinion.

David

shylock

Ok. I'll bite. Anyway my eyes are tired of searching for it. Which Lincoln wheat is a 67BN?

My brain burned out looking for it last night too. It may be a typo in the "totals" or a coin that was removed from the pops (label sent in, downgrade, etc...) and was never corrected in the totals. If it does exist I'm sure David/LincolnCentMan would love to see it, he certainly appreciates the beauty of a BN Lincoln as much as anyone.

LincolnCentMan

Yes,

I'd love to see the PCGS 67BN. I wouldnt be a buyer, though. As many of you know, I'm liquidating my collection.

I do have a NGC 67BN, but it's a common date... I think 1939-D. It's a strong techical coin, but lacks the color that a lot of my earlier ones have. I also have a some PCGS MS65/66 BN's from the 30's, 40's, and 50's that dont show up on the pop reports b/c they're not important enough to list.

David