MR. HALLS RESPONSE: WOOD PCGS BOXES BEING TESTED...BUT WHY ONLY NOW?
magikbilly
Posts: 6,780 ✭
Hi All,
thought this might be interesting here as well.
Best,
Billy
Hi All, thought I would post this here as I feel it is important.
<< <i>CoinAddict - "Peter's (Nichols) response to my question was " The short and easy answer is nothing. I am in the
very fortunate position of having my work tested an examined by the
conservation departments of the leading museums in Europe. They all came
to conclusion that the natural mahogany must be completely untreated to
ensure no interaction with any coins placed in contact with them. In truth
I have renovated many early cabinets from three centuries and some have used
varnish of unknown types on the trays, but then conservation was not a great
issue in Victorian times. My advice, process and sand the tray but
leave them untreated."
In my reply thanking him I invited him to come and check out the forums.. >>
Hi,
from the Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver's Judy Greenfield, Conservator of Objects - "Building a Better Case"
"True African mahogany is reported to be one of the least corrosive woods, but it's expensive and difficult to procure, and other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield). Additionally, mahogany is resistant to termite attack. There is disagreement over the benefits of seasoned wood. Kiln-drying (seasoning) wood helps break down and drive off some inherent acids, though it may depress the wood's RH-buffering ability (Miles). But Werner cites the Department of Industry's statement that "[seasoning] wood...accelerates the production of free acetic acid and formic acid. Most of the acid, however, remains in the wood."
So, even if you are lucky and your cabinet is actually made out of true African Mahogany it is still only a lesser evil. While Mahogany is much more stable than red oak, particularly dimensionally which I imagine would play a role in cabinet making, none of this this alters the fact that wood is factually not the best choice of material in which to store coins. I continue to quote from Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver, and this information is specifically in regard to display/storage cases - not so terribly removed from coin storage. And remember, display cases in museums are often temporary and yet these matters are considered. Many of the displayed items cited in the article were metal
"Although some woods are worse than others, all emit a variety of acids, aldehydes and other lignocellulosic degradation products." (Miles). Wood emits mostly acetic acid; formic acid is produced at 1/10th the amount of acetic acid(Blackshaw). Moisture hydrolyzes acetyl groups in the hemicellulose (a form of cellulose, the "building block" of wood) to produce acetic acid. Elevated temperatures appear to foster acetic acid production (Werner)." I don't know what to make of the claims about sanded mahogany - it is also agreed among conservators that all woods must have a barrier between the wood and the display case interior. "No wood can ever be completely sealed to stop emission of organic compounds, though sealants can impede emission." At least one case I saw made by Mr. Nichols appears to have the coins "exposed" to the inside finish, which IMHO should not be inside the case at all. You don't need physical contact for outgassing problems, and we know PCGS slabs are not "sealed" and plastic is gas permeable anyway. Also, the PCGS boxes are "cherry wood finish and are lined with black felt" - I don't have any idea what wood is used, what adhesives, what finish (oil /Varathane?) or what fabric. To me, once closed, the environment in a wood box is concentrated - and the wood just sits there outgassing with the adhesives and finish, waiting to absorb large qualtities of water...now if the box is in a safe.....
Someone mentioned Varathane - "Even after 18 months' drying time, oleoresinous (oil) paints corroded lead in an experiment cited by Miles. As oil products dry, they undergo oxidative degradation which yields volatile organic acids, aldehydes and carbon dioxide (Miles). Oleo-resinous products include oil-modified paints and varnishes, one-component polyurethane varnishes (e.g., Varathane), alkyd paints, epoxy ester paints, aluminum paints, silicone paints and most varnishes (Miles)."
The information just goes on and on...and on - ESPECIALLY about the harmful glues and adhesives that might be used in construction (perhaps more important than the wood and as important as the finish), the fabrics - fabric should not be used where humidity is not controlled (someone mentioned a tarnish retardant cloth - these can be bad - as can certain dyed felts etc.!)...all can be injurious, and usually are unless care is taken. All I am saying is that wood in not an ideal choice, or even second choice for long term coin storage. Yes, this data is about storage/display cases in museums, but most of the problems above seem are mainly influenced by humidity and temperature - variables found in every deposit box and safe. And those are concentrated environments, more than the cases in the above discussion.
Best,
Billy
PS - Despite recent posts to the contrary, oak is indeed the most acidic of woods and does in fact outgas. "The most acidic hardwoods include oak, beech, birch and ash. Oak is the most acidic. With a pH of 3.7 to 4.9, depending on the source (Miles, Stamm), it is capable of liberating up to five percent of its weight in acetic acid (Erhardt)." Brazillian Mahogany, as apparently used by Mr. Nichols, is apparently properly called Honduras Mahogany and IS NOT true African Mahogany and does not share the same "stability" as the African source above - "other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield)". I have no idea what wood Mr. Nichols uses other than what he states on his website. As stated above about Mahogany though, regardless of seasoning or kiln drying "most of the acid, however, remains in the wood." I have no issue with Mr. Nichols fine and attractive cases, this is not an attack on his cases nor do I wish to engage in any further discussions about his work as I do not even know him.
thought this might be interesting here as well.
Best,
Billy
Hi All, thought I would post this here as I feel it is important.
<< <i>CoinAddict - "Peter's (Nichols) response to my question was " The short and easy answer is nothing. I am in the
very fortunate position of having my work tested an examined by the
conservation departments of the leading museums in Europe. They all came
to conclusion that the natural mahogany must be completely untreated to
ensure no interaction with any coins placed in contact with them. In truth
I have renovated many early cabinets from three centuries and some have used
varnish of unknown types on the trays, but then conservation was not a great
issue in Victorian times. My advice, process and sand the tray but
leave them untreated."
In my reply thanking him I invited him to come and check out the forums..
>>Hi,
from the Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver's Judy Greenfield, Conservator of Objects - "Building a Better Case"
"True African mahogany is reported to be one of the least corrosive woods, but it's expensive and difficult to procure, and other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield). Additionally, mahogany is resistant to termite attack. There is disagreement over the benefits of seasoned wood. Kiln-drying (seasoning) wood helps break down and drive off some inherent acids, though it may depress the wood's RH-buffering ability (Miles). But Werner cites the Department of Industry's statement that "[seasoning] wood...accelerates the production of free acetic acid and formic acid. Most of the acid, however, remains in the wood."
So, even if you are lucky and your cabinet is actually made out of true African Mahogany it is still only a lesser evil. While Mahogany is much more stable than red oak, particularly dimensionally which I imagine would play a role in cabinet making, none of this this alters the fact that wood is factually not the best choice of material in which to store coins. I continue to quote from Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver, and this information is specifically in regard to display/storage cases - not so terribly removed from coin storage. And remember, display cases in museums are often temporary and yet these matters are considered. Many of the displayed items cited in the article were metal
"Although some woods are worse than others, all emit a variety of acids, aldehydes and other lignocellulosic degradation products." (Miles). Wood emits mostly acetic acid; formic acid is produced at 1/10th the amount of acetic acid(Blackshaw). Moisture hydrolyzes acetyl groups in the hemicellulose (a form of cellulose, the "building block" of wood) to produce acetic acid. Elevated temperatures appear to foster acetic acid production (Werner)." I don't know what to make of the claims about sanded mahogany - it is also agreed among conservators that all woods must have a barrier between the wood and the display case interior. "No wood can ever be completely sealed to stop emission of organic compounds, though sealants can impede emission." At least one case I saw made by Mr. Nichols appears to have the coins "exposed" to the inside finish, which IMHO should not be inside the case at all. You don't need physical contact for outgassing problems, and we know PCGS slabs are not "sealed" and plastic is gas permeable anyway. Also, the PCGS boxes are "cherry wood finish and are lined with black felt" - I don't have any idea what wood is used, what adhesives, what finish (oil /Varathane?) or what fabric. To me, once closed, the environment in a wood box is concentrated - and the wood just sits there outgassing with the adhesives and finish, waiting to absorb large qualtities of water...now if the box is in a safe.....
Someone mentioned Varathane - "Even after 18 months' drying time, oleoresinous (oil) paints corroded lead in an experiment cited by Miles. As oil products dry, they undergo oxidative degradation which yields volatile organic acids, aldehydes and carbon dioxide (Miles). Oleo-resinous products include oil-modified paints and varnishes, one-component polyurethane varnishes (e.g., Varathane), alkyd paints, epoxy ester paints, aluminum paints, silicone paints and most varnishes (Miles)."
The information just goes on and on...and on - ESPECIALLY about the harmful glues and adhesives that might be used in construction (perhaps more important than the wood and as important as the finish), the fabrics - fabric should not be used where humidity is not controlled (someone mentioned a tarnish retardant cloth - these can be bad - as can certain dyed felts etc.!)...all can be injurious, and usually are unless care is taken. All I am saying is that wood in not an ideal choice, or even second choice for long term coin storage. Yes, this data is about storage/display cases in museums, but most of the problems above seem are mainly influenced by humidity and temperature - variables found in every deposit box and safe. And those are concentrated environments, more than the cases in the above discussion.
Best,
Billy
PS - Despite recent posts to the contrary, oak is indeed the most acidic of woods and does in fact outgas. "The most acidic hardwoods include oak, beech, birch and ash. Oak is the most acidic. With a pH of 3.7 to 4.9, depending on the source (Miles, Stamm), it is capable of liberating up to five percent of its weight in acetic acid (Erhardt)." Brazillian Mahogany, as apparently used by Mr. Nichols, is apparently properly called Honduras Mahogany and IS NOT true African Mahogany and does not share the same "stability" as the African source above - "other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield)". I have no idea what wood Mr. Nichols uses other than what he states on his website. As stated above about Mahogany though, regardless of seasoning or kiln drying "most of the acid, however, remains in the wood." I have no issue with Mr. Nichols fine and attractive cases, this is not an attack on his cases nor do I wish to engage in any further discussions about his work as I do not even know him.
0
Comments
That is a lot of information to digest. Certainly none of us want to potentially damage
our valuable coins by placing them in a harmful storage environment.
I'm not going to comment one way or another regarding the use of any other cabinets,
storage boxes, etc., but for the record, I believe that with our showcases, any potentially
damaging emissions of the wood, glue and/or finish is a non-issue as they are an open
type of display. As such, any outgassing should be harmlessly dissipated into the
environment. When coins are not being displayed in the showcase, we recommend storing
only the removable, rotating aluminum panel with the coins intact, in your safe, safety-deposit
box, etc.
I don't know how well-sealed or gas-permeable the plastic used by the grading services
is, but common sense would tell me that it is some of the best protection available.
Ken
Thanks. You beat PCGS and every other cabinet/box/display maufacturer in making any response at all to me regarding these posts. I agree with you - as long as it is an open display and the materials are soundly chosen (and of course, the coins are slabbed) I see no reason your attractive display unit would pose a problem.
Best to you,
Billy
PS - I saw that aluminum tray - anodized aluminum was the material of choice according to many sources - and you too
I would not store my slabbed coins in those if you paid me. What in the above information makes you think PCGS boxes would be a good idea? Unless PCGS comes out and says the boxes are inert and safe, which I don't think is likely, these are just pretty and decorative - certainly not functional from a preservation standpoint IMHO - for long term storage expecially.
Best,
Billy
T
***************************************
To Whom It May Concern:
I recently purchased three (3) Limited Edition Hardwood Storage boxes from PCGS. The boxes appear to be absolutely beautiful and I was looking forward to housing my entire Lincoln Proof Registry Set in them. However, I have recently noticed from other members (over 20 posts on the message boards) that there is a major concern about long-term "off gassing" of the wood/varnish/stain that may ultimately affect the condition/grade of my coins, despite the fact that they are all in PCGS slabs. I was also very surprised to learn that PCGS has not taken a stance on this issue to date.
I would appreciate it if PCGS would take a stance on this issue and refund my money in full for the three (3) boxes that I purchased. We all deserve an answer. If you cannot guarantee that my coins will be safe from these boxes, then I suggest that you do the right thing and refund my money in full.
Thank you and I look forward to your prompt response.
Toby Leach
tobyleach@msn.com
Branch Hardoak Jr.
Wooden Box Dept. Sr. Vice-President
Santa Ana, CA
Dear Toby,
Thanks you for you letter regarding the deluxe PCGS storage coffins. We appreciate your concerns and I can assure you that we have taken every precaution, or at least we have thought about them, regarding the safety of your coins. I would also remind you that your PCGS capsules have been designed to withstand most hazards, including weapons of mass destruction, especially biological and chemical compounds, so what's the big whoop? You'se coin guys worry about the silliest things. We appreciate your input, so shut your piehole and enjoy your boxes.
Regards,
Branch Hardoak Jr.
in the Q+A board there is the following response from David Hall to my questions (and to Ellewood's):
"Hi Billy,
We believe the wooden storage boxes are not a problem. We are doing some accelerated life-cycle testing to make sure.
Thanks,
David"
Well, I am very happy he responded. I am happy to hear of the accelerated tests - I had hoped they would have carried out such tests BEFORE marketing..I, and I image the other 78% of you that voted "yes" in the poll (and actually read the posts here and the info in them), will need some very compelling data to change my mind but I am all ears!!
Best,
Billy
I for one will take that as a compliment
Best to you,
Billy