Hey dollar collectors, let's talk turkey!!!!
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Please, if you've gotten this far, bear with me for just a moment longer. What I'd like to talk about, what I'd like to get some rational replies about and what I'd like to discuss is the future collectibility and appreciation of Eisenhower Dollars in holdered grades of MS65++++ with nicely toned or at least attractive surfaces.
From what I see at shows, shops, auctions and in the collections of others who are assembling the series, these coins are rather difficult to come by and present their own obstacles. Foremost is the fact that they weren't saved to any great degree and weren't really recognized as having potential as a collectible coin until the last five years or so. Perhaps they are available to some in rolls, but I generally see them as singles or in Mint Sets, rarely in rolls and hardly ever original rolls, and those Mint Sets are being shuffled around with scarcely a glance, which further degrades an already problematic coin. The 1972 issues were roll/single only and the 1973's were Mint Set only, limiting availability. At this past weekends 100+ table show, I saw approximately three 1972-P coins, all raw, the same number of 1972-D's and only one 1973 issue. Invariably, when those two dates are found, they are MS63- and not toned.
Putting aside any feelings you may have about the design and the metallic composition, how do feel about the long-term difficulty of assembling a gem set of all the dates, not just 1972-73 in the range of MS65-67??? I can see some parrallels between Ike Dollars and some of the other dollar issues, limited circulation and design appeal to the then current populace and collector base being one, mishandling due to the sheer size/weight of the coin itself and the probable long-term storage effect as others, so hopefully we won't get into a Modern/Classic debate and slip off the point I'd like to discuss, that being this----Where do you think this issue is headed in the next several decades?? As the new generation of collectors comes onto the scene and can harken back to a large coin that pre-dates their birth, where do you think it might head to?? You Ike collectors, do you agree with my observations as to the availability of the coins and the shrinking supply of choice, toned gems?? What have your searches told you are the date/grade limiters?? Even the Silver issues can be tough to find unblemished or unmarked, requiring a sometimes diligent search for that choice coin.
Thanks to all, I hope we can have some worthwhile discussion and some provocative replies from collectors of other Dollar Coins with speculation about where this neglected and oftentimes despised coin may take us to.
Al H
From what I see at shows, shops, auctions and in the collections of others who are assembling the series, these coins are rather difficult to come by and present their own obstacles. Foremost is the fact that they weren't saved to any great degree and weren't really recognized as having potential as a collectible coin until the last five years or so. Perhaps they are available to some in rolls, but I generally see them as singles or in Mint Sets, rarely in rolls and hardly ever original rolls, and those Mint Sets are being shuffled around with scarcely a glance, which further degrades an already problematic coin. The 1972 issues were roll/single only and the 1973's were Mint Set only, limiting availability. At this past weekends 100+ table show, I saw approximately three 1972-P coins, all raw, the same number of 1972-D's and only one 1973 issue. Invariably, when those two dates are found, they are MS63- and not toned.
Putting aside any feelings you may have about the design and the metallic composition, how do feel about the long-term difficulty of assembling a gem set of all the dates, not just 1972-73 in the range of MS65-67??? I can see some parrallels between Ike Dollars and some of the other dollar issues, limited circulation and design appeal to the then current populace and collector base being one, mishandling due to the sheer size/weight of the coin itself and the probable long-term storage effect as others, so hopefully we won't get into a Modern/Classic debate and slip off the point I'd like to discuss, that being this----Where do you think this issue is headed in the next several decades?? As the new generation of collectors comes onto the scene and can harken back to a large coin that pre-dates their birth, where do you think it might head to?? You Ike collectors, do you agree with my observations as to the availability of the coins and the shrinking supply of choice, toned gems?? What have your searches told you are the date/grade limiters?? Even the Silver issues can be tough to find unblemished or unmarked, requiring a sometimes diligent search for that choice coin.
Thanks to all, I hope we can have some worthwhile discussion and some provocative replies from collectors of other Dollar Coins with speculation about where this neglected and oftentimes despised coin may take us to.
Al H
0
Comments
I dont care particularly for the design, but I've been holdin them as I've been wondering what you're asking, generally. I wonder if they'll become desireable.
You bring up interesting points, and while I cant answer your questions, I'll be following to see what the experienced folk have to say.
Having gone through hundreds of blue envelope and brown box Ikes, I know what a chore it is to find true gems in those two issues.
*******************************************************************************
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
who set aside some rolls or bags and the varieties were noticed very early on. In those days
there wasn't as much interest in nice coins and those setting them aside didn't really take many
pains to find the choice examples. This may be just as well since really nice Ikes are extremely
few and far between. The circulation issues are many times scarcer in gem than the Morgans
and most are tougher than the peace dollars.
In those days my interest was almost strictly gem coins and I just never even saw a gem Ike un-
til the mid to late '70's. This was when I started looking for them. While uncs will never be scarce
with the exceptions of a few varieties, none of the gems is really common. The '76-D probably had
a mintage of about a quarter million in gem but this coin wasn't as heavily saved so most of these were
destroyed in circulation. Many more were destroyed by collectors recovering the cost of their mint
sets during the many years that the set sold for less than face value. Some of these coins had tiny
mintages as gems.
Ikes greatest weakness is the simple fact that there were not large numbers of people who grew up
with them and wax nostalgic when they see them. They circulated lightly and only very briefly. Most
people would get only a few per year in change so they never got much emotional attachment to them.
It should be noted that these were the first moderns to bring premiums in high grade and did attract
interest as early as the late 1970's. Premiums were sometimes substantial by the early '80's and these
markets were fairly mature, albeit thin, by the late '80's. Gains since that time have been spotty or con-
centrated in only the scarcest and highest grades. I'd look for a boomerang sort of increase which has
probably already started but won't expect to see these ever become very popular. There are simply too
few of them to promote and collectors have never shown much interest in them. Certainly the extremely
rare issues could rise substantially but it's unlikely that this will occur with the grade rarities.
I find two hurdles that the Ike series must overcome. First of all - the lack of gem coins. Invariable these ARE hard to find - if you hunt through tens of hundreds of mint sets, you might find a few gems still encased in their original packaging, but for the most part MS63 for clads, and MS65/66 for Silver Uncs is the rule of the day - certainly there are gems to be had.
The second problem is that no one knows how to properly price Ikes. The result is that generally when you do find coins in nice condition and they happen to be slabbed, they are selling for prices which don't quite sit right at this time in the development of the series.
Frank
<< <i>But where's the hole??? >>
He's asking the same question!
Re Ikes as numismatic collectables: Alan Hagar was advocating the virtues of Ikes a few years ago--Nuff' Said!!
<< <i>
Re Ikes as numismatic collectables: Alan Hagar was advocating the virtues of Ikes a few years ago--Nuff' Said!! >>
...and most evil men in history have advocated hoarding money, silver, and gold--Nuff' Said!!
<< <i>Re Ikes as numismatic collectables: Alan Hagar was advocating the virtues of Ikes a few years ago--Nuff' Said!! >>
Hagar was the driving force behind the making of the Ike dollar market in the mid-80's and the reason why the Ikes were the first modern to bring large premiums in the top grades. ACG began mainly as a certification service for Ike dollars.
<< <i>
Hagar was the driving force behind the making of the Ike dollar market in the mid-80's and the reason why the Ikes were the first modern to bring large premiums in the top grades. ACG began mainly as a certification service for Ike dollars. >>
Hagar was one of the first into the Ikes but was by no means the first. I had actually met
a couple Ike collectors before Alan Hagar started in around '83 or so. There was already a
small market in these coins in the late '70's.
Rather than the man that enlarged this market, it was much more the issuance of the book
in 1986 which drew so much attention to the area and caused a significant price increase.
...and again. This was well before the grading services started grading the coins.
<< <i>If dealers make an active and dependable two-way market in the coins then they have the potential to rise in value. I doubt that this will happen. I expect that Ike's, like so many moderns, will be handled as a one-way market in which the dealer "makes" the grades himself by looking thru raw coins but never buys them already slabbed unless he can "steal" them. >>
As stated many times before when this statement is examined most of the "truth" in
it merely evaporates. More importantly the days of the availability of raw moderns are
rapidly drawing to a close. Infinite quantities of these coiins were not produced, so they
had to run out eventually. When it's no longer possible to "make your own" the only way
to obtain these will be on the market. This will have the effect of greatly increasing the
demand for gems whether they are raw or graded.
<< <i>
<< <i>If dealers make an active and dependable two-way market in the coins then they have the potential to rise in value. I doubt that this will happen. I expect that Ike's, like so many moderns, will be handled as a one-way market in which the dealer "makes" the grades himself by looking thru raw coins but never buys them already slabbed unless he can "steal" them. >>
As stated many times before when this statement is examined most of the "truth" in
it merely evaporates. More importantly the days of the availability of raw moderns are
rapidly drawing to a close. Infinite quantities of these coiins were not produced, so they
had to run out eventually. When it's no longer possible to "make your own" the only way
to obtain these will be on the market. This will have the effect of greatly increasing the
demand for gems whether they are raw or graded. >>
The simple truth is that few dealers in moderns really make a true two-way market. When nice coins are offered for sale they always "have enough for now" or "just bought nearly a dozen in the past few weeks." These are actual quotes from supposed "market maker" dealers at a recent show. In one instance the dealer's case was overflowing (literally) with recently PCGS slabbed MS and PR 70's. To him, my PCGS MS/PR69 were rubbish. Is that a market you really want to be involved in?
<< <i>
The simple truth is that few dealers in moderns really make a true two-way market. When nice coins are offered for sale they always "have enough for now" or "just bought nearly a dozen in the past few weeks." These are actual quotes from supposed "market maker" dealers at a recent show. In one instance the dealer's case was overflowing (literally) with recently PCGS slabbed MS and PR 70's. To him, my PCGS MS/PR69 were rubbish. Is that a market you really want to be involved in? >>
Obviously none of the coins you offered the dealer were MS regular issue Ikes considering the fact that these
do not exist in MS-70, or MS-69, or even in accurately graded MS-68. MS-67's are extremely rare and will get
a specialist dealer's attention and you can feel confident that few will ever have just bought a dozen the last
week.
As in all series, dealers will make stronger offers for rare and hard to obtain coins than they will for common and
frequently seen coins. Spreads on many moderns do tend to be larger and it's imperative to learn about these
coins if one insists on spending large amounts of money on them. It's a shame if you have coins you're buried
in but this is not the fault of an entire market segment nor is it truly even relevant.
The fact is that Ikes are and will always be difficult to find in, and assemble collections of gems. This will never
change regardless of what occurs in the market in the future or what may have occurred in the past.